Please Help! Boundary Issue

Being gay is more acceptable than being poly in most circles.

I do not hide that I am poly. But I do not scream it from the rooftops either. Frankly it is no ones business but my own and my partners. Same thing with my sex life.

My relationship status, sexuality, career, social status, heck being a mother does not define me. They are just one of many hats I wear that make the whole package.
 
OK, we agree to disagree. And I very much disagree.

Very much.

Being gay isn't who you "fuck." It's who you live with, raise kids with, marry, spend holidays with, it's who you share health care with, and who you struggle to gets rights with. Fucking is the very least of it.

If you want a different perspective from your own, you might look at documentaries on Harvey Milk or in ACT UP or GMHC. Does silence=death ring any bells for you?
 
Daferi,

I see your point on this one. Since being poly isn't as accepted as being gay - since poly people haven't gone through a "civil rights" movement, it does feel a little different.

I can only speak to my own family in regards to poly. Since my husband does not tell his family we are poly, an important person (probably permanent) exists in his life who remains a "secret" to his parents. Not the best idea to me.

Again, my own attitudes come from the fact that my disability makes it unable for me to pass. Well, why should someone with say, MS pass and get the priviledge of being considered an equal canididate for the job, when I am dismissed immediately. On the other hand, we are all about self-presevation.

As Wittgenstein says, "the world is the case" and we are all left out for various reasons.
 
You now see gay couples in quite a few prime time TV shows. Modern family, Greys anatomy, etc. The only show touching on Polyamory is basically soft core porn.

If you get fired for being gay you can sue and win. We have no such protection. Many companies have a morality clause to employment. Either in writing or not. In a state like here they can fire you for no reason at all.

I was approached to do a reality TV show about my life. Just showing my daily life. I declined out of fear for my children. People are cruel and have no problem telling a child their mother is a disgusting slut. Murf has his job to worry about. Butch works for the state. I am not willing to risk his career and his pension.

My family knows about Murf. Murf is mono and has nothing to do with Butch other than a very distant friendship. Their social circles do not meet. Butch is out but in the kink community no one bats an eye.
 
I think the difference is that I live in a country where being gay isn't the big thing it used to be. In ky country, you have more right to be homosexual than you do to be religious. Gay people don't really go around having to make mini protests about gay issues. Marriage is/was a thing but if you went round outing yourself to anyone that would listen, most gay people I know would tell you to get the fuck over yourself because nobody cares who you bang. Straight people don't feel the need to do that, so why would gay people want to? I thought the idea was to promote that someone's sexuality is irrelevant to their wider being. It doesn't make them a better or worse person. It simply states who they have romantix relationships with. That's all. Move somewhere more liberal.
 
Fair enough. That is your country's experience. That is not my country's experience. I am so happy that gay people have not suffered there as they have in the US. It's wonderful.

However, your statement totally belittles the fact that gay people HAVE had to fight for their rights in the US and have had much much worse problems elsewhere.

Would you be open to acknowledging that?

The fact that you call it "broadcasting" frankly sounds hateful and homophobia. What wouldn't straight people do that,,,,hmmmm because they have always been able to hold hand on the street without getting beat up.
 
Telling complete strangers and people who have no interest in your life about your romantic relationships can actually be a violation of their boundaries. Nobody is suggesting that you hide that you are gay, you just don't need to tell everyone you interact with. It's unnecessary and do nothing to change views except enforce the archaic belief that homosexuals are unable to recognise and follow norms and conventions. Honestly, taking the approach that you've got to force your sexuality on everyone is the wrong way to go, and that goes for poly people, kinky people, conservative religious people, gay people, everyone. It's annoying and oppressive.
 
bofish said:
1. Should I tell her that lifestyle isn't right for me right now, so I can only be casual friends?
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I can't think of any way to say that that wouldn't sound like a negative judgement of her lifestyle. That could be hurtful and would not meet her need for acceptance.

You could try framing it in terms of your feelings and your needs, rather than in terms of her lifestyle. When she's around you, she's not doing the "sex party behaviours," so really it's your own thoughts that are getting in the way of a positive relationship, not what she does in her own time.

2. Should I drop the boundary with my husband and let him make the decisions with her and not ask what they do?
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You told us earlier that you didn't force him, he chose to agree without coercion. Your wording here, however, sounds like you pressured him against his will. We're not there to confirm or deny this, but it may be helpful to look inside yourself and reflect upon whether you were trying to control his behaviour. If you find that you were, I believe apologies to him and the girlfriend may help smooth things over.

3. Does anyone with experience with gay meth parties have advice on how to view regualar sex parties as safe and wholesome?
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You had a friend who had gay meth sex parties. That's one example. In your experience, is it usually reasonable to draw generalizations based samples of one person or group? For example, you said that you were told as a child that having cerebral palsy meant you couldn't be sexy, and that people treating your disability this way contributed to your negative attitude towards sex. Would that make it fair for someone to generalize that all people with cerebral palsy have negative attitudes towards sex?

In this case, I think exposure therapy could be helpful. If you wait until you're "ready" then you'll probably be waiting a very long time. Exposure therapy isn't meant to be fun or comforting. It's meant to show you that doing something you fear or despise won't threaten your safety or well-being. It may be uncomfortable, but if you bring people who are loving and supportive of your needs, I'm confident you could get through it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is that your husband didn't know he was going to a sex party until he got there. What action did he take when he found out? Is your biggest issue with your husband's behaviour at that point? Or the girlfriend's for lying to him to get him there?
 
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There are gay men on this board. River I believe is one.

I'm out about my orientation and being poly.

When I decided lying needed to be eradicated from my life-the option of closets went with it.

It's just a major part of my life that I have a boyfriend and a husband. They are both daily part of my life. We're raising children. It would be disrespectful not to acknowledge either of them as critical components of my life.

That said-I have friends who aren't out about one or the other-for a variety of reasons. Doesn't work for me.
 
bofish said:
When you compare it to bowel movements...do you mean what you do in bed? Or orienation? Do you mean you don't tell people you are poly or bisexual?

I'm confused... you mean the former, right?

If not, how do you relate this to people who are gay and "in the closet?"
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I just mean the whole idea that if you can't walk up to a stranger and tell them all about "it" then you shouldn't be doing "it," whatever "it" is. I used bowel movements as a pathological example.

I'm not "out" and I'm not "in the closet." I'm just me. If it comes up, I mention it. I don't need to puff up my feathers and make a big deal of it like I'm a poly/lgbt/kink activist.

To me, none of those things "are" my identity. Yup, I'm one of london's boring "just pansexual." I'm also a techie, a scientist, an academic, a Whovian, a wife, a girlfriend, a Canadian, a Linux user, a Riders fan, a Marxist, a former Winnipegger, a folkie, a Costco member, a horticulturalist, a cat slave-monkey, a Google & Android groupie, a homeowner..... To me, poly and pansexual are no more "who I am" than any of those things (except maybe Riders fan and Costco member). It's the collection of ALL my personality traits that make up my identity. How strange it would be to introduce myself as all those things just to make sure no one thinks I'm in the closet about my TARDIS blanket. That some people choose to emphasize their sexual orientation as being a more important aspect of their identity is their own choice, but that doesn't implore me make to the same one.

I could understand not being "out" as poly. I still think it's not ideal that my husband and GF aren't out to their families. I think it's hiding and lying about a big part of their lives.
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What's the difference? How is hiding "how many" you love more reasonable than hiding "who" you love?

But for all the men (and women) who have died or lost their jobs or kids for coming out as gay, I don't have much tolerance for gay people in the closet...sorry. But, I've expressed this before about disability. I think it's human nature to put our own comfort over changing society. :)
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It's specifically BECAUSE people have died or lost their jobs or kids for coming out as gay that I have infinite tolerance for gay people in the closet. You can add getting kicked out of their homes, beaten up, losing friends and family members...

Do you believe these things no longer happen? People in North America face this every day, to say nothing of countries where freedom and liberty are but a dream.

I believe it's truly sad when a person does not feel safe coming out. But that judgement needs to be made on an individual basis, with an evaluation of their own safety. Being in the closet is painful and I don't think anyone chooses it just for convenience. Being able to come out in safety is a legal right, but sadly one that some people just can't exercise. The fact that some countries are even moving backwards on the issue just goes to show how much of a "homophobia is dead" world we don't live in.
 
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SchrodingersCat said:
It's specifically BECAUSE people have died or lost their jobs or kids for coming out as gay that I have infinite tolerance for gay people in the closet. You can add getting kicked out of their homes, beaten up, losing friends and family members...

Do you believe these things no longer happen? People in North America face this every day, to say nothing of countries where freedom and liberty are but a dream.

I believe it's truly sad when a person does not feel safe coming out. But that judgement needs to be made on an individual basis, with an evaluation of their own safety. Being in the closet is painful and I don't think anyone chooses it just for convenience. Being able to come out in safety is a legal right, but sadly one that some people just can't exercise.
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I have seen it. I have lived it.
My girlfriend and I were attacked by a mob of Christians, in a school playground for holding hands. Fortunately-no permanent damage was done and we were able to escape, with the help of friends, with only bruises and fear. I pressed charges for assault and won.
But-as much as being in the closet doesn't work for me-I can't judge others for not being out.
It's dangerous. It's risky business and you have to know what your own limits are for protecting yourself and your family.
 
I've often heard that you should not discuss the following topics in mixed company: politics, religion, sex, and operating systems. None of those are anything to be ashamed of, but all of them have the potential of offending people you don't know well.
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This is how I operate also, I am old fashioned that way and I am very happy to be able to get along with many different people across the social spectrum because I stick to it.

I am also lucky enough to live in a liberal country where I have been out completely and not been insulted and/or judged, at least not to a point myself or the children would notice, which is good enough for me. I am also out to family, which means for me at least, I am able to have a more authentic and honest relationship with them (except my mum, who knows but would prefer not to but, sadly that is her problem, she is not the most tolerant woman and has managed to upset and offend most members of our family for myriad reasons, completely unrelated to alternative relationships) but I have to acknowledge that between people being at risk of physical harm and also younger people at risk of serious material disadvantage like homelessness, it is not always a good risk to come out.

Sorry to hear about your experience LR.
 
Being out for any kind of alternative choice carries risks!

I homeschooled my kids and it was impossible to not be out. We lived in a nice quiet middle class cul de sac neighborhood and all the other kids knew my kids werent in school. Also, my ex husband had a spiritual practice based on Native American beliefs and had a large teepee in our side yard for fires and vigils.

One time a boy tried to punch one of my daughters. Luckily she had kempo karate skills from years of lessons. She merely used a block on him that was instinctive at that point, and he lost his balance and rolled down the hill.

Kids would constantly try to quiz my kids on math. It was quite annoying.

Another time, 2 neighborhood boys smashed all our pumpkins the day before Halloween, and rubbed dog shit on our doorbell. We found out who did it and told their parents, but the damage was done. They targeted us. All the other neighborhood pumpkins were left unmolested.

Also some boys (maybe the same ones) threw rocks at the teepee one time when the congregation was there for a fire. Some of the community's children were playing in our yard at the time.

So, yeah. Being "out" has its downside! It's an individual choice and I find it tiresome to be told one must be out for the good of all. I am out to the people who matter to me, and that's fine by me. My gf and I did come out as a couple to our real estate agent when we were house hunting, so we could present as a dependable unit and not as 2 people, mere roommates, who might drift apart and not be able to make rent.
 
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bofish said:
That's not what my therapist said - He's a Buddhist and he said, if you aren't willing to walk up to someone and tell them what you are doing, you probably shouldn't be doing it. There are many reasons to disagree with this, and people should have privacy.
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This is a problem when trying to apply a philosophical slogan to reality. A wise person will understand that all philosophical slogans (like the one he's parroting) must be tempered with reason or they are useless.

Within the context of the conversation at hand, "if you aren't willing to walk up to someone and tell them what you are doing, you probably shouldn't be doing it" is a comically idiotic addition.

bofish said:
I PERSONALLY have issue with people who aren't out - as being poly, gay, bi, disabled, whatever. To me the issue is that by staying "in the closet" that person is helping maintain the concensues that being disabled, gay, bi, poly is wrong... and making it harder for those who are out.
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You really seem to struggle with identifying where you stop and the rest of the universe begins.

I suggest working on that, post haste.

Try getting yourself in the habit of saying (your inside voice) a mantra like "that is not my business" or "they are grown ups, I'm sure they can work it out" or "I respect their privacy"... whatever works. Continuing to relate to the world as if it is waiting with bated breath to hear your criticism will just cause frustration for you.

People like sex parties, that's their business.
People don't tell strangers about their sexual orientation, that's their business.
People live their lives how they want to, that's their business.

Here on a discussion board we hash out ideas, express our disagreements about philosophies, and have constructive discourse of that nature. However, in the real world, people who are living their lives how they wish and aren't hurting me (or anyone else, preferably) in the mean time are fully entitled to live their lives without my derision. And, for my own sake, I am not prompted to be angered by their difference in philosophy.

Using your irritant as an example, I personally think it is better to be "out" than "in the closet". If I am engaged in a conversation about the concept I will explain how, if someone can be open about who they are without risk of harm to themselves then they run a higher risk of living fulfilling lives. The fact that a stranger could make MY life easier by outing themselves would be a truly self-absorbed standpoint and if I find myself focusing on something like that - I've got some introspection to do.
 
Mag- That is amazing that you homeschool! I am sorry that happened.

As far as begin "out." You guys are right. I shouldn't judge and I will try not to. I just highly respect people who put their lives on their line to secure the rights of others.

I totally know bashing still occurs on many levels. I live in NY and even here, someone was hurt in the West Village a few months ago. The prejudices and dangers are very real. However, I feel that they are less pronounced and gayness is "accepted" because of the people who originally came out and stood up and took the heat.

What about people who cannot be in the closet? How do you guys feel about them? Some gay men are obviously queenie. To be in the closet would be changing their dress or mannerisms. What about disabled people who cannot be in the closet? Or even, my husband's GF argues that Husband and I are priveldged because we a legally married and therefore can "pass." Husband chooses to 'pass" I choose to tell everyone.

I would love to hear from River or another gay man. I could be totally 100% wrong...but it occured to me that poly is largely a hetro/bi/female movement...right? I know many gay men and haven't actually met ONE who is monogamous. I am not saying all gay men are slutty - but I do believe that what hetros would construe as "poly" is the "norm" in gay male relationships - therefore, they would be part of such a conversation (enless involved with a bi man in a relationship with a woman). Right?

I am grateful to have wonderful, smart folks to write about ideas with! Thank you!

London - I guess I won't be seeing you next year at June's gay pride parade...bummmer!
 
"The fact that a stranger could make MY life easier by outing themselves would be a truly self-absorbed standpoint and if I find myself focusing on something like that - I've got some introspection to do."

Sorry... I just do not understand this at all...

So, you are saying that the fact the Harry Milk came out as the first (or one of the first) gay politicians and encouraged others to do so didn't make "MY or anyone's life's easier?" What? Huh? Not to be snotty, but do you even know what I am refering to? I must be misunderstand you...the reason gayness is socially acceptable is BECAUSE people came out to strangers. How do you disagree with that?

And now my friends can get married, they can kiss in public, they can share health insurance, etc.

If you don't believe in political movements, I respect that, just let me know...so I'll stop trying to convince you! :p
 
bofish said:
but it occured to me that poly is largely a hetro/bi/female movement...right?
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Really? Where did that come from. Poly has little to nothing to do with orientation or gender. Maybe it is just the way your write, but many of your comments strike me as extremely judgmental and completely devoid of compassion or understanding for anyone that doesn't see things YOUR way. Sure those that come out publicly pave the way for others, and if that's what they feel called to do, more power to them. However, not everyone has that desire to deal with the kind of drama that might produce. I have certain religious and political views, that doesn't mean I accost everyone I meet with these views and I tend to say away from those who do.
 
SNeacail said:
Really? Where did that come from. Poly has little to nothing to do with orientation or gender. Maybe it is just the way your write, but many of your comments strike me as extremely judgmental and completely devoid of compassion or understanding for anyone that doesn't see things YOUR way. Sure those that come out publicly pave the way for others, and if that's what they feel called to do, more power to them. However, not everyone has that desire to deal with the kind of drama that might produce. I have certain religious and political views, that doesn't mean I accost everyone I meet with these views and I tend to say away from those who do.
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I agree 110%.

Even if you do declare to see another persons point then you demand praise and acknowledgment.
 
bofish said:
If you don't believe in political movements, I respect that, just let me know...so I'll stop trying to convince you! :p
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Gonna teach me a thing or two about civil unrest are yah?

Milk was an activist who outed himself and, as part of his activism tried to get his fellow homosexuals to risk life and limb for the possibility of reducing the oppression they suffered.

People getting their heads bashed in, murdered, arrested, fired, publicly ostracized are all necessary when fighting the hate machine of traditional thinking. It was quite literally a war, and pain and suffering were absolutely a requirement if any progress was to be made. Asking other people to join him in this was outrageous, but he was the leader of a movement and did it anyway because he felt the good would outweigh the inevitable damage done to the volunteers.

This righteous mantle is put on by people throughout recorded human social history because injustice and tyranny become to much for the oppressed to bear... and they rise up no matter the cost.

YOU, on the other hand...
I PERSONALLY have issue with people who aren't out - as being poly, gay, bi, disabled, whatever. To me the issue is that by staying "in the closet" that person is helping maintain the concensues that being disabled, gay, bi, poly is wrong... and making it harder for those who are out.
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You presume that everyone should be out about everything they do, that if you aren't babbling about it to strangers in the street, you shouldn't be doing it. You want everyone to be "out" so that your life will be easier... regardless of what it does to THEIR life.

That, is what I called self-absorbed. You want to be self-absorbed that's your business... I don't PERSONALLY have issue with it, but in this discussion I chose to take a moment to point it out for what it was.
 
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