Poly and BDSM

[BonzaiBlitz]

This is something that has been growing on my mind lately.

Bloom and I first decided to open up our monogamy because she had always been interested in BDSM, and felt we had achieved a degree of stability in our relationship that we could branch out without our primary relationship being in danger.

She spent months doing research and assuring me that she wasn't looking for a replacement, prior to proposing the opening.
Our MO going in was to be able to act on attractions and/or emotional attachments from the emotional stability of our primary relationship.

Though the first few months were expectedly rocky, we found our groove and she was able to dive headfirst into a D/s relationship (and subsequently the local BDSM community), and took to it like a fish to water.

Meanwhile, I was able to date, and started seriously considering my own potential bisexuality, something I'd had to shove under the rug since I was thirteen, because Bible Belt.

However, the more people I dated, the more I noticed that everyone who was available to me (i.e., who didn't freak out at my being married), was also part of the BDSM community, and all of them pushed for our relationship to take on some kind of BDSM dynamic, rather than just remaining "vanilla".

I also noticed that the local Poly groups and events were all made up of people from the BDSM community as well.
Having never really considered BDSM aside from the occasional biting/scratching, and looking for new experiences, I started attending events and meeting people with a totally open mind.

I met the leaders and organizers of the two local dungeons, attended several play parties and many meetups, and experienced a few scenes (fire play, impact play, and a wee bit of Primal and knife play).
My reaction to these was mostly ambivalent, though I did hit Subspace as a result of the fire play...but didn't have anyone to reach out to for aftercare because both the lady who did the scene with me and my wife were currently engaged in scenes of their own once Subdrop hit.

...see, I've been learning the vocabulary.

My ambivalence angered my wife.
Not because she was trying to pressure me into liking it, but because she wanted me to be honest about NOT liking it, if that were the case.
Especially given that all of the official play parties required an entrance fee to help maintain the facility.

So here I am, a year of open marriage under my belt, and feeling very frustrated.
In my head, I understand that I live in a very sexually repressive part of the USA, and that any available sex-positive community is a good thing.
I also understand that when a person can lose a job, have their children taken away, or be in physical danger should their individual proclivities become public knowledge, everything is kept under wraps and behind closed doors.

I have met many amazing people in the BDSM community, and aside from some drama have found my local community to be very inclusive and willing to really put themselves out their to support each other.

But having experimented with a wide variety of the potential activities under the BDSM umbrella, and not really finding a niche for myself, AND knowing that dating for married men is a limited pot anyway...I just feel like I'm wasting my time trying to date.

Has anyone else noticed a correlation between one's local BDSM community and sex positivity in general?

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Bonzai,

It seems to me that more people are into BDSM than people into polyamory, or at least BDSM is better-known and has more organized groups. As a result, polyamory gets scooped up by BDSM rather than the other way around. At least that's how I explain what you've experienced.

Perhaps you're feeling frustrated because the vanilla poly community seems to be nonexistent? at least in your area.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Hello

Yes, I have noticed the correlation of poly with BDSM. I consider myself pretty "vanilla" (my byline is "That's not kinky, cuz I do THAT...) even though I am bisexual and polyamourous and like three-and-moresomes .

Our local city meetup is PARG - "Pittsburgh Alternative Relationship Group" = which attracts polys, swingers, and BDSM folks...and I wrote a while back about my experiences there and at the "Kinknic" I attended.

It's rather interesting to me but from an "outside perspective" kind of way - I come to poly from a no-rules non-hierarchy rather "relationship anarchy" perspective - so both swinging and BDSM seem to have a lot of "rules" to me. I don't like rules ("You can't tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. You're not so BIG.")

There are plenty of poly people along the whole spectrum - from vanilla to kinky. Many people come to poly via kink and swinging but some of us do NOT, and now, thanks to the internet, we can find and talk with those folk.

 

[Tinwen]

Has anyone else noticed a correlation between one's local BDSM community and sex positivity in general?

Yes, there is a correlation.
There also seems to be a correlation between polyamory and asexual.
As far as my understanding goes, both of these groups of people have a) already accepted some strangeness in themselves, which facilitates making another leap into polyamory, and b) good reasons to poly as it is harder to find a compatible partner.

I think you should feel free to socialise with the bdsm community if the people suit you even if don't have a desire to play. Hopefully you can work around the money issues. As far as dating goes, I can't give any sound advice.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Meanwhile, I was able to date, and started seriously considering my own potential bisexuality, something I'd had to shove under the rug since I was thirteen, because Bible Belt.

There's so much more to kink than going to dungeons and engaging in staged, public play. Yes, the "done thing" for many is to identify niches and roles and engage in scenes with elaborate equipment, but my experience of kink is that it can be incredibly soul stirring when part of a private, intimate relationship built on a very vanilla foundation. There are many aspects to kink, only one of which is going to events. I've never been to an event, but get up to all sorts of kink in private when the relationship takes me there organically. BDSM is certainly your wife's thing, but if kink doesn't speak to you right now, it may very well be that you're just not into the kind of public and community play that she is. There are many, many ways to get kinky and public dungeons are just one. Don't subject yourself to these events just to find poly people.

Also, I'm curious to hear why you're struggling to fit with BDSM, which to my view, you clearly don't feel attracted to, when there's a whole world for you to explore in your bisexuality.

 

[Spork]

Well...

If you enjoy the socialization, there should be no reason NOT to go to events if you feel like it. Frankly, paying the door fee is supporting a good thing that many people get good out of, including your wife, and I can guarantee that these places really aren't profitable. They tend to run on shoestring budgets and every cent of support is needful and appreciated.

So, on the one hand, you're doing good just showing up and paying to be there. You don't have to participate if you don't want to, and I'm sure you know that.

You've come with an open mind, you've tried the things, the things weren't really your thing. Fine and good, right? Who can fault ya? No one, I'm thinking.

On the flipside, you should never have anyone you are dating trying to push you into a role you don't want to be in. That isn't considerate behavior. It's not loving. Y'know?

Also, I wonder, you have tried these kink activities, but what about any of the power dynamic stuff? I know some folks who aren't that into, say, pain, or the particular genres of "play" so much as they are into feeling in power or not in power. Hell, most vanilla couples I know, one partner has more natural authority in the dynamic than the other. I tend to think that most vanillas have at least a bit of unspoken kink, they just prefer not to look at it that way.

I would say, maybe don't go to LOTS of events if your budget is tight, but it's good to know that you can be there and it's no big deal, if you have any cause to be. Meanwhile, negotiate your relationships fairly, just tell people that you've been there, tried that, not really into it, not looking for that kind of a relationship. Then they can decide if they are down for what you've got to offer, or no. I don't think it ought to matter much if they are in the kink community or not. I know plenty of kinky folk who still like vanilla sex. Just means if that is a NEED for them, they might have other partners, maybe just for play, maybe not. *shrug*

Don't be afraid to ask for what you want. Odds are, you're somebody's dream come true. Y'know?

I'm curious, is your wife annoyed because you're spending money you don't need to, going to the parties, or because she thinks you're checking up on her or invading her space, or because she thinks you're trying to force yourself to be into something that you're not really into? Just wondering.

Good luck!

 

[BonzaiBlitz]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

There's so much more to kink than going to dungeons and engaging in staged, public play. Yes, the "done thing" for many is to identify niches and roles and engage in scenes with elaborate equipment, but my experience of kink is that it can be incredibly soul stirring when part of a private, intimate relationship built on a very vanilla foundation. There are many aspects to kink, only one of which is going to events.

I've read and discussed many aspects of kink with the friends we've made since joining the community, but because the events are mostly for sadists/masochists to show off, or for the odd fire master to really let loose, it really creates a sense of an overabundance of sadists/masochists (neither of which I am) vs. everyone else involved in the lifestyle.

And I do understand that there are many kink dynamics (for example, primal) which don't translate to a "scene" (ie, don't really work in an open-and-shut sequence).

Don't subject yourself to these events just to find poly people.

Also, I'm curious to hear why you're struggling to fit with BDSM, which to my view, you clearly don't feel attracted to, when there's a whole world for you to explore in your bisexuality.

To address both of these, I came into BDSM with an open mind, and finding I wasn't into it wouldn't have been as big a deal...if it didn't seem to be the only way to meet potential new partners of any gender.
Thus this thread.

Because I live in sexual-repression land, I feel like I don't have any other ways of meeting people who 1) Can even deal with the fact that my marriage isn't monogamous without going holy-terror on me, 2) Can be sex-positive friends, and 3) Can be potential partners...without doing so through the BDSM community, and automatically being saddled with relationship luggage which I don't want.

 

[BonzaiBlitz]

Well...

If you enjoy the socialization, there should be no reason NOT to go to events if you feel like it. Frankly, paying the door fee is supporting a good thing that many people get good out of, including your wife, and I can guarantee that these places really aren't profitable. They tend to run on shoestring budgets and every cent of support is needful and appreciated.

So, on the one hand, you're doing good just showing up and paying to be there. You don't have to participate if you don't want to, and I'm sure you know that.

This is true, but I just feel like an outsider when I go to an event and don't actually scene.
Especially since the two dungeons around here use fairly small facilities, and I'm not much into voyeurism, so I feel like I'm wasting my time and their space.

You've come with an open mind, you've tried the things, the things weren't really your thing. Fine and good, right? Who can fault ya? No one, I'm thinking.

True, but it's frustrating when it feels like my only source of new potential partners involves activities I know that I don't enjoy.

On the flipside, you should never have anyone you are dating trying to push you into a role you don't want to be in. That isn't considerate behavior. It's not loving. Y'know?

Yep.

Also, I wonder, you have tried these kink activities, but what about any of the power dynamic stuff? I know some folks who aren't that into, say, pain, or the particular genres of "play" so much as they are into feeling in power or not in power. Hell, most vanilla couples I know, one partner has more natural authority in the dynamic than the other. I tend to think that most vanillas have at least a bit of unspoken kink, they just prefer not to look at it that way.

As I stated above, I've read about a wide variety of activities which fall under the "kink" umbrella, but my local community seems overflowing with sadists and masochists (some identifying as "primal," but really just preferring S/M with claws and teeth in place of implements), and pain play has dominated (no pun intended) the play parties I've attended.

I labeled myself a Submissive coming in, because I do want to experience being the object of someone else's desire (both in seduction and during sex), but due to the apparent flood of sadists and masochists, there doesn't seem to be anyone in my area to even DISCUSS a power dynamic without a beating assumed beforehand.

I would say, maybe don't go to LOTS of events if your budget is tight, but it's good to know that you can be there and it's no big deal, if you have any cause to be. Meanwhile, negotiate your relationships fairly, just tell people that you've been there, tried that, not really into it, not looking for that kind of a relationship. Then they can decide if they are down for what you've got to offer, or no. I don't think it ought to matter much if they are in the kink community or not. I know plenty of kinky folk who still like vanilla sex. Just means if that is a NEED for them, they might have other partners, maybe just for play, maybe not. *shrug*

This is likely true, but I've met and been attracted to several people who treat BDSM as their sexual orientation, and factor "kink compatibility" as high as personal compatibility when looking for new partners, so that's an additional level of frustration.

Don't be afraid to ask for what you want. Odds are, you're somebody's dream come true. Y'know?

Yeah, but my lack of self-assurance and self-confidence really gets in the way of KNOWING what I want, much less expressing it to someone else.

I'm curious, is your wife annoyed because you're spending money you don't need to, going to the parties, or because she thinks you're checking up on her or invading her space, or because she thinks you're trying to force yourself to be into something that you're not really into? Just wondering!

This was one of our first discussions prior to opening up.
And then she found via multiple public scenes that she's an exhibitionist in addition to being a submissive masochist, so it's kinda been a free for all as far as me going to events and watching her scene.
Especially since the first time I ever saw her scene, it was with her then-dedicated Dom.

We're good as far as me going to events, she just hates that we pay money for me to feel like an outsider for 4+ hours.

 

[Tinwen]

We're good as far as me going to events, she just hates that we pay money for me to feel like an outsider for 4+ hours.

Try other events. Are you into sci-fi? I find that conventions, in my country at least (but I'm from Europe), tend to be pretty openminded, even sex-positive. Of course you will still have an easier time spotting bdsm people there then polyamorous ones, since bdsm tends to be more outgoing, but the general atmosphere is rarely prude.

 

[Magdlyn]

If you want to find vanilla lovers, you're looking in the wrong place, sounds like! Maybe you could try Grindr (for men) and Tinder for women. Another option for more serious dating is the dating site OK Cupid. When you write your profile there, mention you're polyamorous, and that your wife is too, and answer at least 25-50 of the questions there, focusing on the dating and sex questions. That will give the site enough to go on to match you with people (men and women) who are vanilla, but poly or poly friendly. Make sure you write a good essay about yourself, engaging, humorous, descriptive.

If there is such a thriving BDSM scene in your area, surely there are vanilla polys out there too! And if you want to date men, well, they are easier to get with than women.... I'm approached by men every day on OKC, but never approached by women, bisexual or lesbians, despite me being bi (and pretty cute and nice, or so people tell me).

You can choose to ID yourself on OK Cupid as bi. But I know for a fact, some straight women will not date, or even talk to, a bi guy. I think it's stupid, but there it is.

 

[PinkPig]

I live in a very conservative area, too. Like you, the sex positive groups I've found in/near my city, are all either BDSM related, or most of the people in the group are into BDSM. There are a few swingers groups that aren't so heavy into BDSM...which is ok if you're just looking for more sex and not romance.

I agree with Magdlyn. If your'e wanting to explore your bi side, it shouldn't be too hard to find men up for that. In my experience, men are much more open to dating people who are already in a relationship than women are. Grinder is definitely the app for that (and not just hook-ups, either. I know a couple men who found their life partners on grinder.) If you don't want to use dating apps because of the possibility that you'll run across someone who will out you, then your local gay bar is a good place to meet men. Magdyln is right about women being less open to dating bi men. Which is bs.

I can't help with the women. I had difficulty finding women to date, too. Imo, women are just more picky. (And not necessarily picky in good ways :/)

 

[Marcus]

Has anyone else noticed a correlation between one's local BDSM community and sex positivity in general?

I'm not sure I would call it correlation, but there is certainly clear overlap between the two things.

I live in Portland Oregon, which is the most socially progressive area I have ever lived in. There are exponentially more poly folk here than I ever found in Dallas. That said, the BDSM community and the poly community are basically the same thing... I've only met a handful of people who aren't into it.. or are "vanilla".

"Vanilla"... fuck that term bugs me. It's so condescending.

But having experimented with a wide variety of the potential activities under the BDSM umbrella, and not really finding a niche for myself, AND knowing that dating for married men is a limited pot anyway...I just feel like I'm wasting my time trying to date.

Maybe look at it with a different game plan in mind.

If there are people in the BDSM scene whose company you enjoy, hook up with them socially *outside* of that scene. Find people who have other things in common with you like... I don't know... whatever you like doing. You'll meet their friends, expand your social circle, and hopefully meet more people who are into the things you are into.

 

[vinsanity0]

Seattle has a very thriving poly and bdsm community. There is a lot of overlap, but not everyone is into kink. I'm not sure about where I am in Florida now. I haven't felt like getting involved. I know there is a big bdsm community here. The poly groups seem more split up.

I agree you are wasting your time if you are not into it. It is unlikely you will find someone in that community that will overlook your lack of interest in activities.

Besides doing OKC, etc, try getting out there and meeting people. Not everyone into poly belongs to a group.

 

[opalescent]

There is a bias in the BDSM communities I'm familiar with where the people who most enjoy public play are those who like 'performing' in some way. So the exhibitionists, the voyeurs, the people who like flashy scenes (fire topping, intense pain play, extreme rope suspensions, etc.) will be over-represented both in numbers in public dungeons and in impression of how the community works. However, this is surface. It's not untrue - it's just not the whole picture.

It was really offputting to go to a party and not scene, even while it seemed like *everyone* else was scening away, and doing these super extreme things while I just wanted to try (comparatively) mild sensation play. I occasionally still feel like the public scene is not for me. I'm not a voyeur so I do get bored with the exhibitionism sometimes.

Know that there are many people like you in your local BDSM community - they are just well camouflaged. They will be harder to find, less obvious. And if you are not so into BDSM anyway, it may not be worth it for you to try and find them. However, for what it's worth, I found play parties impossible to meet people I did not know. (They were helpful to connect more deeply with people I knew already.) Are there any classes or discussion groups on topics that interest you? That's how I meet just about everyone I'm friends with who is also kinky or poly. And if there aren't, consider running your own poly meetup. Yes, lots of work and you have to consider how out you want to (or can) be. I have heard some poly people complain that it's hard to find vanilla poly people, the overlap with kink is very strong. But if you organize a meetup (a munch in kink terms), they will come to you!

It can take a really long time to find one's place and peeps in kink communities. It takes time to figure out what one likes, doesn't like, what feels extreme and what doesn't, hard and soft limits and so on. It took me a couple of years to figure out that I do not fall on the dominant/submissive spectrum at all. I enjoy topping and bottoming and consider myself a switch.

And, of course, you can explore and decide that BDSM is not really for you. I have friends who are kink-adjacent. They accept kink, see why people like it, accept their partners may be into it but it just doesn't do much for them personally.

Also Marcus's suggestion is spot on. My friends in kink and poly community near me are all just that - friends. I got to know them outside of any kink or poly interests. Some I scene with, some I have sex with (or both) and some are 'just' friends. But they are all dear to me and I would not have meet them without that initial commonality.

 

[starlight1]

So I consider myself pretty vanilla.

I mean. I do kinky and BDSM things, but I don't couch it in those terms. I don't like identifying as that label. I have been involved in the communities but they aren't my niche. I have friends who are bdsm and not poly, and poly and bdsm, and vanilla and poly and vanilla and mono. I also have a fetlife page I never use. I just don't get off on some of those things, i'm *rarely* kinky and only with the right people. So..

There is definitely a correlation between the two, my local one was definitely caught up in that. And maybe that was just the people I hung out with, but I didn't want to do those things. So yaknow maybe creating a safe space in the community for those less bdsm inclined would be good. You could start a group yourself and see what happens?

 

[Ravenscroft]

the people who most enjoy public play ... who like 'performing' in some way ... will be over-represented both in numbers in public dungeons and in impression of how the community works.

Nicely put!!

I co-founded a couple of Minneapolis BDSM groups in the early '90s. A few years later, I found myself "disinvited" from some of their parties "because you don't PLAY enough." Okay, this seems odd on the surface, because I'm a bit of a drama queen AND enjoy performance in general. However (as I told those who cared to ask),

• I do NOT pay money
• to go to a party
• in order to perform
• to amuse whatever Wandering Wankers happen to be there

"If you want me to to put on a SHOW, then PAY ME. Else, I am there to relax, chat with friends, & maybe trade some shop talk. If I want to do some play with my girls, then we'll do so at home because they deserve my full proper attention, & I will choose whether I want to share that with others."

(And I got re-invited to most of the parties. )

 

[Tinwen]

Reading this thread I'm pretty greatful about how my local club works. It basically has a pub downstairs (they sell soft drinks and some food and even beer and wine -- people are expected to watch their alcohol intake on their own), and the playrooms are upstairs. People meet to talk at the pub, and by far not everyone goes to play. It's unimaginable for me that someone is 'expected' to play or perform, in fact, you can even put a 'red' sign on most of the rooms and use the equipment to play in private. Of course, if the owner sees anyone playing clearly drunk or ignoring a stop sign or taking photographs (out of private), they'll never let them in again, but otherwise, there are really no rules as to who is invited to most events (you just need a registration at the webside or something) and the fee is very modest.

 

[Spork]

Clubs here vary on how they function...

We have my main one, Voodoo, which is a sort of art gallery, dungeon, and community center (for the kink and alt community.) We have lots of discussion groups, workshops, fundraising events that contribute to local causes, game night monthly, a music jam night... There is a small bar, but it's not like a pub, the place doesn't keep up a liquor license, so they can't sell alcohol. Events where alcohol is consumed are "bring your own bottle" almost always. Occasionally another organization will use the place as rented event space and they can get their own alcohol permit for just the event and serve booze.

Getting into Voodoo involves attending an orientation, they're held several times each month, usually before parties. And $20 upfront for membership, renewing annually at $10, with a door fee for each party or event that varies but is normally $10.

Then there are a couple of "Houses" that are private residences but hold parties. The one I attend, you have to know someone who lives in the house, or be vouched for by someone they trust, to get in.

Then there is the RACK Room up in Denver, where I go occasionally for pyro workshops. I adore the woman who runs that place, and I love the space, too, it's unfortunate that driving to Denver feels like a hassle to me. But to get in up there, you've got to read the owner's rules, which are LONG, and include links to other sources she expects you read, also. You must be on fetlife, and send her a message, and give her your full name and phone number, and she'll call you and grill you on details to see if you actually read the stuff. She can be kind of a hardass about all that, and frankly...it's an awful lot of reading. But she is tired of dealing with people who don't even bother and just say "Uh...you gotta be like...respectful, right?" There IS more to proper behavior than that. Whatever, her place, her rules.

There's another place in Denver that has orientation I think a couple times a month, and parties maybe every weekend. I have been there for things a couple of times, but I'm not a fan of the space. It just feels too industrial to me. Concrete floors, high ceilings...I prefer the wood floors and warm lighting at Voodoo. Feels like home.

But yeah most of the venues have poly parties or discussion groups, one of the Houses called itself "House of Compersion" there for a little bit, and frankly if one were averse to being around the kink scene entirely, I don't know how one would find a poly community here.

 

[IndigoTiger]

But yeah most of the venues have poly parties or discussion groups, one of the Houses called itself "House of Compersion" there for a little bit, and frankly if one were averse to being around the kink scene entirely, I don't know how one would find a poly community here.

I really wish we had something like that. The only thing close to it is the goth/kink club night that they have one Saturday a month. It's fun for what it is, but it's almost like just being at a kink school dance with drinking. Alot of drama, alot of clicks, and most people worth spending time with tend to stop coming.

 

[Spork]

I really wish we had something like that. The only thing close to it is the goth/kink club night that they have one Saturday a month. It's fun for what it is, but it's almost like just being at a kink school dance with drinking. Alot of drama, alot of clicks, and most people worth spending time with tend to stop coming.

I have friends in Richmond, VA and I heard it was like that there, with this one goth club. I looked on Fetlife, thinking surely that could not be so...and what I found was that there WERE other places, it's just that they are private homes where you really have got to be in a very "in" crowd, to get in. You gotta know the right people.

And that's because (I assume) that area is so freakin' uptight that everybody is seriously closeted about their kink if they are respectable folks, so they don't want to go to more public-ish venues. They want their secrets kept. Though if one were able and/or willing to travel a couple hours, there are better places in other parts of VA and DC.

That's a thing here, bit of an issue, discretion. It is a rule in the scene, it's spelled out at every orientation, we all know, if you see someone in public you do NOT "out" them. You keep your damn mouth shut. We try to respect one another's privacy about kink. But sometimes accidents or missteps happen. It sucks, but we all know it's a risk. Personally, that's why I'm very "out" about my kink, because I'd rather not have secrets that anyone can use against me. I'd rather defend the validity of my choices than try to police their secrecy.

But I stray from the topic.

I'm thrilled with our scene, but that's because I feel like I fit well in it. We do have some non-kinky folk who go to the swinger events. But not all polyfolk fit either box neatly. If I were in that camp, I think I'd be checking maybe with meetup.com to see if there was anything there.

And lest we forget...every community, every venue, started because someone, or a small group of people, decided there was a need. If your locale lacks what you need, maybe create it. Odds are good you're not the only one who wishes it was there, y'know?