Polyamory + Aging = Loneliness?

[Natja]

I'm starting to feel like I'm taking up too much of everyone's time; after all this is a polyamory discussion forum, and there are pending questions from people who have a variable number of partners rather than being permanently flatlined at zero

You could answer mine, I am single at the moment and at home with a young baby, so, I am bored and looking for adult conversation, you are not talking me away from any exciting Poly life so, you don't have to feel guilty.
.

3. I don't think I'm depressed, but let's say I might be wrong about that.

You are wrong and you are. Unless you are that creepy dude who has no social skills and keeps hitting on 22 year olds.....because I know that dude, let's call him Rob, now Rob was married for years, (it was he who introduced me to the concept of Polyamory actually but we never had an intimate relationship, we just used to hang out as friends). His wife was ok about them opening up the relationship for kink reasons (he was into it, she wasn't) so he, went investigating it but never really connected with anyone so their relationship still continued to be entirely monogamous.

But then she left him, Rob had to start out again in his late 40s and he really hasn't got the best social skills plus, he loves to hit on women far too young for him. A 49 year old man trying to chat up a University undergrad is embarrassing, especially since he is so bad at it anyway.

Rob however, has just got engaged
To a woman who is age appropriate.

So....are you the creepy guy going after teenagers or is this depression because I refuse to believe that any man of your age feels ready for the knackers yard.

Anyway, in case you'd still like to know, I live in Seattle and am in my early 40's.

That's the perfect age range for me and I am single, would be happy to grow old with someone and don't give a toss about your past. It is actually your present, at least your present state of mind which makes you so thoroughly unappealing.

Stop blaming it on the Poly, it isn't Poly that has ruined your chances, it is you who is ruining them now.

 

[WhatHappened]

I don't think there is anything normal about it, if anything I think it is over sharing, I have never liked hearing about the romantic life of any of my partners, I never ask about it and will never ask about it. ......



..... I do, and have, talked about exes when it is relevant to the topic at hand i.e. "I went out with a guy who turned out to be xyz...never again!!!"

And this is exactly what I said. In the course of conversation, things about exes do come up.

The choice to date a married man is significant to most people, such that to never mention it would be considered hiding it, by many, and therefore dishonesty, and as Ship said, it would make them stop and wonder what else you've (general you, not you in particular) left out.

I understand some here live their lives very surrounded by those in the poly world, such that maybe it isn't an issue. But beyond the bounds of the poly world, it is not considered normal to date a married man or woman.

 

[Natja]

Sorry WhatHappened but 98% of my friends and acquaintances are not Poly. They just don't care and certainly don't make any judgement on what is normal or not, everyone is weird in some way innit?

And as you can see, I am volunteering information that is relevant, to disclose a previous partners marital status unless that IS the topic and if that IS the topic than it is not just discussion, it is prying.

I don't know if I am making sense or not but what I mean is. In that scenario above this is the conversation.

Guy I am dating "I quite like houseboats"
"Yes so do I, those barges are actually very spacious, not like narrowboats"
"Oh? Have you been on many"
"Yes, I used to date a man who lived on one, it had a lot of space"

Is there any need to mention his marital status or whether he was poly or not? Of course not.

However if new date says.
"Would you ever date a married man"?

I would wonder what the hell sort of question that was and why he is asking it.
In other words, I don't see it as valid question.

but again, as I said before, if someone needs to know the answer to that question because they would not consider me a respectable partner based on that well.....I seriously wouldn't want them in my life anyway, there is NO chance that we would have the same or similar ideals on life if they have those kinds of beliefs, so....it is important to know that from the beginning I would grant you that.

 

[WhatHappened]

You are wrong and you are.

I'm amazed at the way Ship is being judged in this thread and now even diagnosed as being depressed.

Sorry WhatHappened but 98% of my friends and acquaintances are not Poly. They just don't care and certainly don't make any judgement on what is normal or not, everyone is weird in some way innit?

They are, clearly, however, acquainted with the poly world. I think it's easy to be very immersed in one's group, one's world, and forget that beyond the town gates, so to speak, things are very different. Your friends are clearly acquainted with poly. This changes none of what I said. It changes none of what Ship said. There are many, many people who would raise an eyebrow or two at having dated a married person.

Is there any need to mention his marital status or whether he was poly or not? Of course not.

There are many people with whom this would not sit well. At the very least, they would want to know why. To many people, dating a married person is enough outside the norm that they would feel it was an omission to simply not mention it.

We can talk all we want about how those who wouldn't bat an eye. It doesn't change the fact that there are those who would.

I personally feel it's something that a future prospective spouse deserves to know. I personally would feel I was deliberately hiding something if I didn't mention, sometime before I marry this future spouse, that BF was married. (For instance, it's a very reasonable question for someone to ask, If you two got along so well, why didn't it progress to marriage?)

Obviously, you may feel differently, and obviously you may do as you please.

but again, as I said before, if someone needs to know the answer to that question because they would not consider me a respectable partner based on that well.....I seriously wouldn't want them in my life anyway, there is NO chance that we would have the same or similar ideals on life if they have those kinds of beliefs, so....it is important to know that from the beginning I would grant you that.

Exactly.

 

[hyperskeptic]

Part of what I see going on here is that the way the problem is framed involves a false dichotomy: either you have success in "dating" and "romance" as conventionally conceived, or you end up puttering around alone for the next forty or sixty years until you die.

The world is so much wider than that! There are so many other ways of relating to other people, so many other ways to find friendship, companionship, or even just non-alone-ness!

It's all a matter of what you expect or demand of the world and of others.

A good start - as I've suggested elsewhere - is to unbundle conventional notions of "dating" and "romance" and to focus instead on relating to people as individuals, not as potential candidates to fulfill a particular role.

For me, that's been one of the most liberating things about being poly.

(I write this as a guy in his mid-40s. Although my situation is different from yours - I'm in a long-term relationship that happens to involve legal marriage - I've gone through some very dark spells in the last few years, especially when my spouse was away for long stretches on adventures of her own. There were times when everything seemed bleak and hopeless, and I was convinced I would eventually end up alone. My path out of that particular valley is documented elsewhere on this forum.)

 

[Natja]

I'm amazed at the way Ship is being judged in this thread and now even diagnosed as being depressed.

I'm pretty sure what the OP said after is indicative some sort level of depression, or else he is a wind up merchant. I am generally a cynical person but I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt that he isn't out to wind people up and he genuinely feels helpless. But this goes beyond feeling a bit lonely to me.

They are, clearly, however, acquainted with the poly world.

No, there is a huge difference between knowing what your friend does and knowing about the poly world. It is a little hypocritical in light of what you just said about me diagnosing Shipwrecked to then assume my acquaintances know about 'the poly world'.

They just don't care what 'I' get up to, I am not sure how more clear I can say that.

Your friends are clearly acquainted with poly.

Are they? Thank you for telling them, they will be thrilled.

There are many, many people who would raise an eyebrow or two at having dated a married person.

Are these the type of women Shipwrecked wants in his life? That is an important question.

To many people, dating a married person is enough outside the norm that they would feel it was an omission to simply not mention it

.

That just makes no sense to me at all... you mean it is like telling someone you are a transvestite or like being tied up. I can imagine addressing those two things since they are an intrinsic part of who you are, having dated a married person isn't, so....putting it in the same category seems madness to me and I would avoid that type of person like the plague.

I personally feel it's something that a future prospective spouse deserves to know.

Well that is a complete an utter aberration to me, I see no point, I don't think it is anyone else's business and I certainly do not think it is anyone's "right" to know, that is elevating a relationship past into something that it doesn't deserve. It lays credence to slut shaming and judging people by their pasts (especially when it is not relevant to their present).

(For instance, it's a very reasonable question for someone to ask, If you two got along so well, why didn't it progress to marriage?)

It's none of my business why you and your ex decided to part ways, I simply couldn't possibly care less. It is not reasonable unless you value the information about how a person behaves with other people more than how they treat you now and I refuse to judge people by their past.

Whether you admit it or not, it is part of a conservative, sex shaming mindset that needs to know that the person you want to commit to is chaste or at least virtuous (by whatever moral compass you use). By feeling compelled to confess Polyamory, you buy into that mindset.

I don't believe in it.

 

[LoveBunny]

@Shipwrecked, I am your age, and I also struggle with deep loneliness. I struggle with it even though I am married. Sometimes I feel absolutely floored by it.

I really thought you were going to say you were like 65 the way you were talking. And you live in a big city! (I live on a small island where the dating pool is tiny.) But of course, sometimes, living in a big city can make you feel lonelier--I was a Manhattanite until my mid-30's, and found I feel much more connected and part of a community where I live now.

Like you, I have wondered whether at my age, trying to seek more love is ridiculous. What you said about not enjoying what's in front of you because you're out hunting for love especially resonated with me. I just came out of 15 years of monogamy, and I often find myself quite guilty of feeling so HUNGRY for action! I know I'll never have kids, and my husband is a workaholic with high blood pressure whose libido has fizzled out over the years while mine hasn't--hence me dating outside the marriage. Sometimes I wonder if I'd have better luck as a single woman, but then, I love my husband, he IS my family and I don't want to abandon him.

My experience with polyamory in my 40's has been more positive than yours.
In the year since I've been allowed to date outside the marriage, I've dated 3 people--it's about quality, not quantity. Now, I am by no means a stunning beauty, I'm short, and have like, no boobs, but I have been pleasantly surprised at the quality of people that are attracted to me as a 40plus year old woman with a husband. Two of them were under 30. One was a former runway model. My current is a former Mr. Zimbabwe who is now in his 40's but in amazing shape physically and mentally.

I suspect the reason I'm doing ok dating-wise is that I take great care of my body, exercise a lot, practice good hygiene, am careful what I eat, and perhaps more importantly I work on myself internally. I work hard to keep a positive outlook even though I have struggled all my life with depression. I always behave with honestly and compassion, and I find things to be passionate about in my life. I try to remember to smile, and to keep my posture and body language confident, even when I'm not feeling that way.

My husband, on the other hand, smokes cigarettes, gets wasted drunk whenever we go out, doesn't take care of his teeth. He lacks confidence, his sex drive is way down, and all he does is work and watch t.v.. Then he complains that he's "too old" to attract anyone, and feels like his days as a sex god are over. Well, of course no women are drawn to him with that attitude! Shit, sometimes even I have trouble wanting him when he's at his worst!

My point is, it's all about YOU. If you feel good about yourself, and treat yourself well, you will be attractive to others. If you abuse yourself physically and mentally, you will not attract quality people into your life. I feel more confident and attractive now, in my forties, than I ever did as an insecure 20-something who gave it up to anyone who would buy my a drink.

I know it sounds trite, but age is just a number, and early 40's is no time to give up on love. Exercise, eat right, get enough sun, shift your perspective, see what happens.

 

[Shipwrecked]

Well, it's never easy to admit one is wrong, but although I still stand by the concerns I raised in my original post, and still suspect some of them could be better fodder for real-life poly discussion groups than the typical communication/scheduling/jealousy mix tape, I no longer think it's reasonable to add all of those concerns together and conclude that "finding a new relationship is effectively impossible for someone in Seattle at age 43 with a poly history."

FWIW it was reading dozens of pages in the "Poly Vignettes: Sharing Success & Happiness" thread that made me rethink this.

Additionally, after giving it a lot of thought I have to likewise admit there really isn't any specific reason for me to prefer monogamy over co-primary closed polyamory, assuming everybody is in it for the long term and either everybody lives together or nobody lives together.

Finally, in answer to a few questions above, nothing is really wrong with my life other than the fact that I'm partnerless and the fact that I'm overweight. Anyway, I guess I'll put more effort into addressing the latter and see if that changes anything about the former. Of course I could be barking up the wrong tree there, but at least it's a tree I'd still get some benefit out of barking up.

 

[Shipwrecked]

I'd also like to thank everyone who participated in this thread for their patience with it.

My last two poly arrangements didn't go well, and that may also have been clouding my judgment.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I'm starting to feel like I'm taking up too much of everyone's time; after all this is a polyamory discussion forum, and there are pending questions from people who have a variable number of partners rather than being permanently flatlined at zero

At no point did I feel like you were wasting my time, at all whatsoever. If I had, I simply would have clicked my way out of the thread.

Gralson has low self-esteem. He often makes disparaging remarks about himself. I respond by acting insulted that he believes I think so little of myself that I would marry a loser.

So now I'm going to act insulted that you believe I think so little of myself that I would waste my time on reading and responding to your post if I didn't actually believe you were worth the effort.

2. I've carefully read what everyone has had to say, and I still just don't believe there is any way out of the trap I'm in.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophesy. Whatever your current situation, I can pretty guarantee that if you truly believe you're doomed to be single forever, then you are in fact doomed to be single forever. However, changing your attitude is all that's required to turn that boat around.

I used to think that whole "you become happy by choosing to become happy" thing was crap. Then I chose to become happy. Lo and behold, it was I who had been full of crap. It really does work. Well, barring clinical, neurochemically induced depression. But there's drugs for that.

3. I don't think I'm depressed, but let's say I might be wrong about that. If I am depressed, then inflicting myself on someone else wouldn't be ethical, and as such getting into a new relationship would be wrong.

Why not let the someone else be the judge of that? It's not even something I would disclose particularly early upon meeting someone, since they'll figure it out for themselves soon enough.

But if I'm not depressed, and therefore my judgment is sound

I just finished one of the "I, Robot" short stories, wherein the robot, upon waking, decides he could not possibly have been created by humans, as he is clearly superior to them, and, he assumes, no being could possibly create another being superior to itself.

As Asimov points out, the problem with reason is that you can prove absolutely anything you want, if you start with the right assumptions. So throw out your assumptions and just go out there with confidence that you'll meet good people.

The world is so much wider than that! There are so many other ways of relating to other people, so many other ways to find friendship, companionship, or even just non-alone-ness!

It's all a matter of what you expect or demand of the world and of others.

This.

If you go out looking for a life partner, you may very well be correct that almost everyone is already either partnered or has chosen not to become so. I'm not saying you are right, just assuming for the sake of argument. So then stop trying to meet life partners, and just try to meet friends, casual relationships.

I know that personally, one of my turn offs is excessive expectation. If I feel like they're expecting me to be their new life partner, it usually means they have a bunch of other expectations that I won't want to live up to. It's all back to that "expecting me to fill the void" thing. No thanks.

One thing I will say about older people is that they're more likely to know what they want. All the people who are willing to get together with just about anyone, just so they won't have to be alone, have probably already gotten together with other anyones. So again, change your attitude. Look at it as though most of the desperate people are out of the way, and the only people who are left are genuine people who only want to live life and be happy. Then become, yourself, someone who only wants to live life and be happy, and I'm betting you'll meet up with some of them in due time. And if you don't, you'll probably be too busy living life and being happy to notice.

 

[InfinitePossibility]

Good to hear that you're feeling a bit better. Long may it continue.

 

[scrasher87]

FYI: A bigot has chosen to write about this thread on a Christian extremist website.
Poly Is Not Always Jolly

 

[opalescent]

A fine reminder that this site can be searched and used in ways not originally intended. Thanks for the link scrasher87.

 

[london]

Fucker didn't even quote me.

 

[YouAreHere]

The Internet is a great place to find anecdotes to support any viewpoint you could ever have. It's not a study, it's not even a good cross-section. It's cherry-picked data.

People who don't want to think will believe what's told to them (as evidenced by all the talking heads on TV, regardless of your political leanings - people listen to the loudmouth they agree with, nod their heads, and get righteously indignant over all these issues they only know one side of). People who are interested and curious will look deeper and realize there's more to it, and that there are selfish people everywhere, in Poly, and in Mono Christian marriages as well.

What *is* interesting about this article is how much attention poly has been getting lately in general. Methinks the loudmouths are only going to get louder for a while.

And, London, your post is an *excellent* candidate for a "like" button... LOL.

 

[Alan7388]

> now that it's too late for more relationships of any kind,

Horse patooties. Jeezum Christmas.

People partner and marry at every age. My mom remarried twice, at 65 and 72, and had more suitors after she was widowed both times. She is frankly pretty ordinary-looking and -sounding.

In my local poly networks (Boston area), the gray-hairs are abundant and some are as active in the mating department as college kids. Most have "anchor relationships" they've developed (the term many here prefer over "primary"), but there's very often new romance gossip to go around at the monthly discussion groups.

Ur Doing Something Rong.

--Alan M.

 

[opalescent]

Well, it's never easy to admit one is wrong, but although I still stand by the concerns I raised in my original post, and still suspect some of them could be better fodder for real-life poly discussion groups than the typical communication/scheduling/jealousy mix tape, I no longer think it's reasonable to add all of those concerns together and conclude that "finding a new relationship is effectively impossible for someone in Seattle at age 43 with a poly history."

FWIW it was reading dozens of pages in the "Poly Vignettes: Sharing Success & Happiness" thread that made me rethink this.

Additionally, after giving it a lot of thought I have to likewise admit there really isn't any specific reason for me to prefer monogamy over co-primary closed polyamory, assuming everybody is in it for the long term and either everybody lives together or nobody lives together.

Finally, in answer to a few questions above, nothing is really wrong with my life other than the fact that I'm partnerless and the fact that I'm overweight. Anyway, I guess I'll put more effort into addressing the latter and see if that changes anything about the former. Of course I could be barking up the wrong tree there, but at least it's a tree I'd still get some benefit out of barking up.

@Alan7388,

The OP did reconsider some of his ideas and overall conclusions. Of course, that was not quoted by the fundies!

 

[Tonberry]

The first two points seem to me to be more the case in monogamy than in polyamory. The third one I'll give you, if your partners are pieces of shit, they can use other partners as an excuse. Of course, you're still responsible for your own communicating with everyone, so spotting such lies shouldn't be too difficult.

Afterwards, you lost me. Quite honestly, your post sounds less like it's talking about how difficult it is to age in polyamory, and more about how, if when you're young you only ever have casual relationships and never committed, long-term ones, when you're old you won't have a current partners, and new partners will be harder to find (especially if you're still only interested in casual stuff).

But that problem is definitely not specific to polyamory. It happens to mono people all the time. They age, and more people are taken. With polyamory, we age, and more people are polysaturated. That's normal, if you stick to your age group. However with time you should have more options. When you're in your 20s, you're likely to date people in their 20s and 30s, but when you're in your 30s, you get people in their 20s, 30s and 40s, for instance. And that's if you only go with a 10 year difference. If you go for more, the more you age, the more available partners you have, because they become adults.

So you can imagine being in your 40s with someone in their 20s, for instance, who you could not have met while in your 20s because they hadn't been born.

Anyways. Your issues are for the most part not specific to polyamory, and those specific to polyamory have nothing to do with aging. Therefore, I'm cannot accept your thesis.

I would actually say that the fact lots of young people experiment means that you're more likely to find someone to date if they're a bit older, because those who call themselves polyamorous are more likely to actually be so. And the problem isn't how many people you can date, but how many people are actually compatible with you. The less incompatible people around, the less time you waste.

 

[Shipwrecked]

A few comments...

1. I still consider each of my original points as individually valid: what I reconsidered was instead whether I could legitimately add them all together and conclude that spending the rest of my life alone was truly unavoidable. So, not whether they lower your odds, but rather whether they lower your odds all the way to zero.

2. I just can't believe any real harm has been done to the poly community by my original post having been quoted in a religiously conservative publication, if for no other reason than that any conceivable form of polyamory would have already been flatly forbidden to that publication's readership based on their religion.

But this quoting does raise an interesting question: IS today's poly community excessively vulnerable to unethical journalists with an axe to grind?

I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I think the poly community's greatest vulnerability today is to a completely secular journalist persuasively painting it as regressive rather than progressive, as follows:

1. Visit a major city's largest poly gatherings. Report the fact that arrangements with multiple females and one male outnumber arrangements with multiple males and one female, or else only quote participants in the former while ignoring the latter. Report the fact that among arrangements with multiple females and one male, more often than not the male is either wealthy or else possessed of a (possibly disguised under a veneer of New Age jargon) bully's personality. For bonus points find a group of attendees hailing from the BDSM community comprising one dominant male and multiple collared females, and quote the male's opinion on whether such arrangements resonate with women's true "biological nature." In short, play into the worst stereotypes of what women might expect to find any situation where powerful men are no longer limited to just one sex partner, all of our utopian swimming-with-the-dolphins 1960's psychobabble be dammed.

2. Quote major poly organizations and poly leaders who still actively endorse the Radical Honesty books and workshops. Then, start with below-the-belt innuendo and guilt by association: note that these workshops still involve filming participants naked, and quote from that Moth storyteller who has publicly claimed the entire schedule of her workshop was rearranged so as to help coerce her into participating in said filming. Continue by drawing uncomfortable parallels between the Radical Honesty principles and the crude men's "pickup artist" literature, both of which encourage saying hurtful things as well as asking essentially every woman you meet to sleep with you, though in fairness only the latter explicitly points out that the lowered self-esteem caused by your insults raises the odds of your sexual invitation being accepted, and only the former explicitly attempts to make you feel PROUD of said manipulation on ideological grounds.

Anyway, the second of those two lines of attack would make it seem as if the poly community's underlying theory is fundamentally regressive, while the first of those two lines of attack would make it seem as if such regression has been the actual result.

 

[JaneQSmythe]