Questions about boundaries

D

dron

New member
Hi all,

I'm new to poly in many ways. I'm in a 9-month relationship with someone who IDed as poly before we met. She has seen several other people while we have dated and I have seen none. So far, this has been fine, because for the most part, I wanted to take the time to really understand if I wanted to do so also, and to clarify what I wanted, why and with whom before just "jumping into it." This has been largely for my own health and for sensitivities to her.

It's been an interesting journey, where I've overcome a lot of jealousies, and clarified for myself a lot of what my desires are and aren't. I've basically finally reached the point where I know I want to hook up with other people (not date, per se, but that may come with time, as well).

I've recently addressed this, that it's finally "time" for me, but it's a difficult moment, as we're having our own intimacy issues. We agreed in the past week or so that we were going to hold off on all extra-relationship activities for now to focus on one another, and then when we re-open the conversation, we'd re-open it for both of us, not just for her to date outside the relationship. I'm relatively happy with this, excited to focus on ourselves, and excited for when we feel safe enough to again re-open things.

However, there's something that's come back that bothers me. Although we are not actively dating (and I have not done so at all yet) she does have contact with previous lovers still. I don't mind this. But here's the current scenario:

We are going to her home state for Thanksgiving week. One of her old lovers is there that she wants me to meet. She wants to go to dinner with them for a couple of hours while I see a movie and then we can all re-convene for drinks after. My knee-jerk jealousy made me want to protest, but I knew to relax about it. I have wanted to meet this person for a while now, and have gotten over any jealousy and issues with this person in concept (which will probably be further re-enforced when I meet them).

Then I think I made the mistake of establishing "ground rules." The first was fine for her, which was simply be on time, don't keep me waiting further. I'm waiting for you, in a state that's not my own with nothing else to do. She was fine with this.

But then I brought up the question of intimacy. I don't care if they kiss, but my lady does have a penchant for public sex, and I don't want to meet up with them afterwards if they have a post-fucking glow, as they "got it in" during their only opportunity while we're there. I noted to her this, and that we're at a place to "focus on each other" right now, and asked her if she thought we were already at the point to discuss re-opening things again, for both of us. However, on her side of things, this is someone she will not see for a long time afterwards, that I'm generally don't have an issue with.

This creates several issues for us:

- "Telling her what she can't do" - she does have a bad impulse to want to do what she's told she can't, which I understand, but it can make negotiations highly difficult
- Hypocrisy - I love my darling, but she has it, and thankfully acknowledges it, but it's getting in the way here
- Stuck in a strange state - This would bother me less if she had a visitor and I did my own thing, like our usual situation, or she was traveling without me
- She claims it didn't even cross her mind until I asked her to not do it, in which case it does become a situation of principle

So I guess my bigger question for anyone who could reply is regarding boundaries. If things were better sorted out, I think a part of me would be totally okay with having no say in what happens during those two hours.

Am I making our situation too conditional?

And if the idea doesn't feel disrespectful, am I secretly some chump and this is just objectively a bad situation?

Is it fair to ask her to wait, when she may not see this person for 6 months?

Or was I even just too paranoid to begin with, to bring up the intimacy question?

Am I focusing too closely on fairness for fairness's sake?

Is her pre-occupation with feeling "unfree" when we negotiate problems a larger issue? Is she right? Is outlining what one can and can't do during a timespan with someone intrusive?

To what extent are we allowed to ask one another to promise things?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
 
Someone else may have a different take on the situation, but in my mind, this one point stands out clearly.

dron said:
We agreed in the past week or so that we were going to hold off on all extra-relationship activities for now to focus on one another . . .
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If you have an agreement in place, you should both honor it. If one of you can't or won't, it's time to renegotiate.
 
Re-negotiation?

Fidelia said:
If you have an agreement in place, you should both honor it. If one of you can't or won't, it's time to renegotiate.
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I guess that's part of my question. Does this situation mean it's time <already> to re-negotiate?

Considering the agreement we made, when I say, "Please promise me nothing will happen," and she responds with "I feel unfree to be asked that," is this her negating the agreement?
 
dron said:
I guess that's part of my question, does this situation mean it's time <already> to re-negotiate?

Considering the agreement we made, when I say "Please promise me nothing will happen" and responds with "I feel unfree to be asked that," is this her negating the agreement?
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Time to re-negotiate, for sure! The implication of that response is that your boundaries are meaningless and will only be maintained if it suits her needs in the moment. I think you both need to not only talk about what boundaries you both need, but actually talk about what boundaries mean to each of you.
 
To reiterate one of my questions, considering what was agreed, "checking in" that she won't do something (though potentially paranoid as it was), was not an infringement of her freedom, but maintaining the agreement?
 
dron said:
Is her pre-occupation with feeling "unfree" when we negotiate problems a larger issue? Is she right? Is outlining what one can and can't do during a timespan with someone intrusive?
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I'm not sure if or when this came up in past discussions...may have been here, or another list or group...but there's been the suggestion that being poly does not mean that you are available to date or have sex with anyone and everyone just because they're poly too. To me, your post & questions strike a similar chord.

Just because she's poly, doesn't mean she has to meet up with and have public fun at every opportunity. If your relationship is going to be based in communication & respect...and you have both decided to make working on THAT relationship the prority...than do so. If you need something from her...like abstaining from other lovers or certain activities while that process is going on, then ask for it. It may or may not be immediately agreed to, but you'll need to negotiate something you can both live with.

IMHO the whole timeline thing is irrelivent. So what if it'll be 6 months before she gets to see this person again? Successully monogamous people can go years or decades without screwing other people who might be waiting in the wings.

I'm not clear on everything in your post...I get the impression that there's other factors at play which aren't apparent from outside. I suspect you'll have some work ahead of you to dig out the root of whatever's bothering the two of you and deal with it. In the meantime, as will be mentioned again...communicate. Identify what you need...and what you'd like...and let her know what those are.

dron said:
Considering the agreement we made, when I say "Please promise me nothing will happen" and responds with "I feel unfree to be asked that," <-- is this her negating the agreement?
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This is going to end up like the Fair vs. Equal discussion...I can feel it now! Of Course it's unfree! That's why they're called Boundaries! As has been said above... you have an agreement...and you are clarifying your expectations about what that means to you. I fail to see the problem.

In the end...as stated by Murphy's Rules of Technology...Under the most rigorously controlled conditions of pressure, temperature, volume, humidity, and other variables the organism will do as it damn well pleases. She is always free to do whatever she wants...she can stay in the bounds she's agreed to, or not. You can't control it. You can only tell her the bounds you need to feel safe... and she gets the responsibility to stay within them...or not. And vice versa.

It's CLR!!! Look at how with removes rust from the showerhead in a single swipe! AMAZING!!! Communication...Love...Respect...
 
Re-negotiating is on the table, but..

I think the black/white re-negotiate or not issue has taken off in the comments. I <know> we need to re-negotiate, but I was hoping for some perspective on <how>, or where it seemed the real issue was. Suggestions? Any read on this, that this is just a communication issue, or does it sound like something truly unfair taking place?

I'm also struggling to avoid ultimatum language. I know I need the negotiation to be happy, but how do you firmly communicate that without an implicit threat?
 
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dron said:
I think the black/white re-negotiate or not issue has taken off in the comments. I <know> we need to re-negotiate, but I was hoping for some perspective on <how>, or where it seemed the real issue was. Suggestions? Any read on this, that this is just a communication issue, or does it sound like something truly unfair taking place?

I'm also struggling to avoid ultimatum language. I know I need the negotiation to be happy, but how do you firmly communicate that without an implicit threat?
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There is nothing unfair taking place. There appears to be a breakdown in understanding of what boundaries are. The real issue is what boundaries are for each of you. I know a lot of people have an issue with the idea of black-and-white boundaries, but really, if everything is grey, there's no point in establishing non-binding boundaries in the first place. What's their purpose, if they can be crossed at the whim of each partner? You may as well just say whatever happens is cool and just natural. I have yet to see lasting arrangements based on that philosophy.
 
It sounds like you and your lady are entering into a deeper relationship than you or she had before. She seems to be used to the serial-poly style, whereby she has many lovers, none of them particularly deep, but loving nonetheless. If you and she want to establish something deeper, then the "anything goes," "we have our freedom" thing doesn't work, in my opinion.

Firm boundaries need to be set. Those can be discussed and moved around, but they need to be made to protect your hearts and feelings. It simply creates respect for each other and will deepen your relationship to no end. Not to mention the freedom that comes with that kind of commitment.

Interesting you would think this is ultimatum talk. Hmm...
 
redpepper said:
It sounds like you and your lady are entering into a deeper relationship than you or she had before. She seems to be used to the serial poly style, whereby she has many lovers, none of them particularly deep, but loving, nonetheless. If you and she want to establish something deeper, then an "anything goes," "we have our freedom" thing doesn't work, in my opinion.

Firm boundaries need to be set. Those can be discussed and moved around, but they need to be made to protect your hearts and feelings. It simply creates respect for each other and will deepen your relationship to no end. Not to mention the freedom that comes with that kind of commitment.

Interesting you think this is ultimatum talk.
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By "ultimatum" talk, I'm trying to understand how to articulate what I need, and have it be understood that it's what I <need>. I don't want it to be a soft "if you could," but an understanding that it is something I firmly need in a relationship right now. So, I'm asking more for suggestions of language choice.
 
I find this interesting, as it reminds me the beginning of my relationship with Mono, in a lot of ways.

I will let him go into detail, if he wants.

First of all, it became evident that I could not have both styles of poly without someone getting hurt. I wanted commitment and depth and someone to know me... I mean really know me. Not just "think I'm cute and want to fuck me and call that loving because we would do it often." Sure, that works for some, and did for me, for a time. But it was not what I wanted for the future, and the time came to shit or get off the pot.

As I said, Mono can add more details, if he wants. I know he doesn't like going there anymore, as it taints what we have now and I don't want to jeopardize that for anything.

I think what I would say is something along the lines of, "Baby I love you, and think we have something really special and unique. I need you to be with just me right now sexually, as I find sex special and bonding between us. I understand that we can love, have our connection and a strong bond, and be able to see others. But for now I need us to respect that we have a stronger bond than the others in our lives, that could lead to a primary situation. If you were to have sex with anyone else right now, I would think that you don't want the same thing. I very dearly need to have a primary relationship with someone and want to have that with you."

(Provided this IS what you want, of course. If not, then I think you may want to look at what you do want.)
 
dron said:
I know I need the negotiation to be happy, but how do you firmly communicate that without an implicit threat?
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There is always an implicit threat in any negotiation of boundaries--and that's a good thing. For a relationship to be healthy, it has to work for each involved, and each of them has to have enough self-respect to be able to walk away if it's not working and the other person(s) aren't willing to help it work.

So, implicit in any negotiation of boundaries is the understanding that if an accord can't be reached, the relationship won't work and it's essentially over (in that form, at least). Poly, mono, platonic--it's the same for any of them.

If she's not willing to help make it work, then you're best served walking away until she is willing or you find somebody else who is willing to help it work for each of you. That's not only best for you, it's best for her, as she'd not be able to make the sort of commitment necessary for a deeper relationship.
 
SeventhCrow said:
If she's not willing to help make it work, then you're best served walking away until she is willing or you find somebody else who is willing to help it work for each of you. That's not only best for you, it's best for her, as she'd not be able to make the sort of commitment necessary for a deeper relationship.
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Wow. Great words.
 
dron said:
I'm also struggling to avoid ultimatum language. I know I need the negotiation to be happy, but how do you firmly communicate that without an implicit threat?
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By first understanding that you have every right to ask for what you want in this (or any) relationship. You can't get what you want unless you ask for it. The tricky part is to ask for it without the expectation that asking automatically means getting what you want.

Of course, that also means understanding where your needs are coming from. If they're coming from a place of insecurity in yourself, then there's little your partner can do to assuage that insecurity. If they're coming from a place of insecurity in how the relationship is working, talking about it and clearly articulating your needs can make it a lot easier to work on it.

We have every right to ask for things, and our partners have every right to say no. I go into every negotiation with that thought in my head. And if what I'm asking for is essential for me to feel secure in the relationship, then I'll communicate that, not in the form of, "You have to give me this," but in the form of, "This is what I really need to feel safe and secure in our relationship." I'll then let my partner choose their own actions with that knowledge. If they choose to honor my feelings and needs, then we can move forward. If they choose not to honor my feelings and needs, then I might be examining if the relationship is right for me.

However, my partner also has needs that I hope are clearly communicated. I will respectfully take them on board and try to honor them, as well. If we are in a situation where honoring the other person's needs means not honoring our own needs, then we probably have goals that are too different, and that is definitely cause for examination.
 
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