Questions about sex

[River]

Just FYI, polyamorists do not consider this or call it the "lifestyle." We consider poly to be more of a love style, and we also don't need to use any euphemism. Generally "lifestyle" refers to swinging or BDSM.

I referred you to our resources list in your other thread. We also have a glossary of terms here:

Glossary and Definitions

Bisexual: sexually attracted to both men and women. Closed Marriage : Marriages where their is no outer emotional relating or sexuality. Closed Group Marriage 1: A group of individuals who describe themselves as married but may or may not be all primaries and who are closed to outside sexual...

polyamory.com

That definition of "closed marriage" seems to me far too narrow and restrictive. In my experience, it is unusual for couples to close themselves off from even very strong emotional connections with others, including profound loving friendships. I was bewildered when I learned that one of my friends (who was a person I really only knew as a waiter at a restaurant I frequented--, but still a friend, anyway) told me that his wife would not "let" him have friendships with women! Their marriage ended a little after this telling. Anyway, I just wanted to say that most "closed" relationships in the USA, where I live, are only "closed" to sexual contact outside of the married or partnered dyad. I'm not sure how it is in other cultures than my own, however.

 

[River]

The Polyamory.com search engine doesn't like short words, and says so. Sex is a very short word, with only three letters. So I'm justified in starting a whole new thread with everyone's favorite word in it.

I want to designate this as an open thread for all questions concerning sexual activity, per se. It's definitely not just for my own comments and questions, and all discussion of sex is welcome here provided it doesn't overstep what the moderators want to limit us to.

Dear moderators, I'm not clear what the boundaries are for discussion of sex in this forum, so do let us know if anyone crosses them. I'll try to treat my comments as respectful but frank discussion of sex among adults.

 

[River]

I'm probably a very rare example of a bisexual (maybe also pan-sexual) man, in that I've had extremely little sexual experience with female-bodied persons -- even though I'm (these days especially) equally attracted to guys and gals / men and women. I've been in two long term partnerships with men thorough almost the entirety of my adult life. My latest partner (a man) and I have been together for nearly 30 years, to round it off. And while our relationship has been open / poly for almost this entire duration, I've not had a lasting and truly meaningful relationship outside of our pair bonding for this whole time. I've had "dates" (so to speak) with a few women in this time, but none of these were likely to "go anywhere". (I overwhelmingly prefer only to have sexual relations with persons with whom there is a lot of mutual connection, trust and affection. And tend not to involve myself in "casual sex".)

I did have a sort of a girlfriend -- for a few weeks -- when I was much younger, but it didn't last long and my HIV status was unknown (and I knew I was potentially infected) ... and so I never entered her flower ... though we did lots of naked cuddling and wet sloppy kissing!

And then there was the casual friend who offered me casual sex, which I took her up on. I did enter her flower, but that was with a condom -- and it only happened just once!

I have a great longing to make love with my girlfriend without a condom!

I presented the word condom in bold and italics because this is a major concern for me at the moment. I despise condoms! I mean, it prevents actual contact where contact is wanted most! And they are tricky to use, in my opinion and experience. They can readily slide off during copulation!

Anyway, I now have a serious girlfriend -- though she lives far away at the moment. We plan to spend months in the same town (my town) soonish, and so there will almost certainly be some horizontal mambo dancing. And so I want to contemplate birth control topics and discuss them with more experienced people than myself.

I really don't want to use a condom. But I also really don't want to be a jerk or an asshole with my sweetheart. I don't want to shove birth control responsibility onto my very feminist girlfriend! -- and not only because that will land me in the doghouse if I try that maneuver. I really do love her!

I understand birth control pills ("the pill") can be a bit of a disaster for women, much of the time. I've heard that a woman will feel as if she is "always pregnant" on the pill. So I'm really not sure I want to ask her to use that method!

What are our options? What our our good options? What should I do? What makes good sense here?

I suppose one possible solution would be me having a vasectomy. But this seems a rather expensive and severe thing to do. But maybe it isn't as severe or expensive as I imagine?

I don't have medical insurance ... and it looks like the procedure would cost at least $1,000 US. https://www.goodrx.com/conditions/birth-control/vasectomy-cost

That's a fairly large chunk of change in my world.

 

[kdt26417]

I had a vasectomy, it really wasn't difficult, I actually recommend the procedure, despite the cost. I'm not a big fan of condoms for myself -- although they do prevent STI's and pregnancies. [shrug] I'm lucky to be limited to one partner, where STI's are not an issue and I don't have to use a condom.

 

[River]

" ... although they do prevent STI's and pregnancies."


They may do this ... when they do not slip off during intercourse. Seems to me the risk of them slipping off is far from negligible. I've spent some time just playing with them (and myself) and testing them out, and they seem far less reliable than most folks claim to know them to be.

Anyway, STI's are not a huge concern, since neither I nor my girlfriend (or boyfriend) are involved with others at this time. Or, rather, are at any meaningful risk of exposure to STIs.

 

[kdt26417]

That's one reason why I recommend getting a vasectomy. It is much more failproof than a condom.

 

[River]

That's one reason why I recommend getting a vasectomy. It is much more failproof than a condom.

Seems sound advice. Thanks Kevin.

Funny that the only time I ever considered becoming a father as a plausible option is with my current girlfriend. Such an odd sensation! But I know I could have my sperm in somebody's freezer, just in case! What a weird thought! Does it even matter whose sperm it is? Hmm. Weird thoughts piling up on weird thoughts!

 

[SquishyHusk]

I offered to get a vasectomy, but the ladies both have IUDs. They like that it makes their periods shorter. STDs are not a concern because it is just the three of us.

 

[River]

Is the intrauterine device (IUD) expensive? Effective? Safe?

 

[Magdlyn]

Is the intrauterine device (IUD) expensive? Effective? Safe?

River, there is a ton of info available online, or from any doctor or family planning clinic, about IUDs. Even the ancients had them; they used a pebble.

 

[River]

River, there is a ton of info available online, or from any doctor or family planning clinic, about IUDs. Even the ancients had them; they used a pebble.

I get it that this info is available online, and I've been looking into it. But I'm also interested in people's personal perspectives, experiences and opinions as part of my learning process.

 

[SquishyHusk]

Is the intrauterine device (IUD) expensive? Effective? Safe?

I don't know about cost. Cookie really likes it because it made her period almost nothing. She has the kind with hormones, but you can get one that uses copper. So far it's been effective - for many years with Cookie. Pumpkin has had it for less than a year.

 

[Evie]

My bestie got a long term back injury from the insertion process (which is done without anaesthetic). If there is one thing in life she would go back and not do, it would be the iud. Which had to come out within a few weeks because of complications.

 

[Eponine]

I get it that this info is available online, and I've been looking into it. But I'm also interested in people's personal perspectives, experiences and opinions as part of my learning process.

I've been having a copper IUD for 8 years. I love it. I did had a hiccup with my first IUD, which fell out shortly after insertion, but the second one has managed to stay and do its work. Both were free with health insurance in the US.

 

[Bobbi]

That definition of "closed marriage" seems to me far too narrow and restrictive. In my experience, it is unusual for couples to close themselves off from even very strong emotional connections with others, including profound loving friendships.

It's not unusual, it's the norm.

The culture here is also against emotional affairs, so I'm not sure what liberal place you live in the US, where you can be fully open except for sex. I grew up in the Bay area and have lived in the most liberal of places and closed is the "accepted norm," closed to sex and closed to deep emotional connection in any romantic way. Many people may do it, but it is NOT the standard of behavior that is accepted.

strong emotional connections with others,

Of course, family, friends, etc., but they are not romantic relationships. The definitions are referring to romantic relationships. You are married. If you have a deep loving relationship with a female coworker, where you have romantic feelings, is that cool with your wife, your friends, her friends, the public at large? If someone sees you having an intimate conversation with said coworker, would they even notice, or would they think something hinky was going on?

I was bewildered when I learned that one of my friends told me that his wife would not "let" him have friendships with women!

This is extreme and abusive, but it happens, especially among religious people.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that most "closed" relationships in the USA, where I live, are only "closed" to sexual contact outside of the married or partnered dyad.

I'd say, for most romantic relationships in the US, it is not acceptable to have ANY kind of romantic emotional or physical contact outside of your dyadic romantic relationship.

 

[River]

Hi Bobbi.

I'm curious what you mean by "romantic" in your above comments.

I asked ChatGPT about how this word is usually used in relation to relationships.

Me:

"Is it generally assumed by people in English speaking countries that "romantic" relationships either include sexual intimacy or are oriented toward eventually including sexual intimacy?"


ChatGPT:

"Yes, in most English-speaking countries, it is generally assumed that romantic relationships either include sexual intimacy or are oriented toward eventually including sexual intimacy. This assumption is rooted in several cultural and societal norms:

1. Cultural Depictions: Media portrayals in movies, TV shows, books, and songs often emphasize the sexual component of romantic relationships, reinforcing the idea that romance and sexual intimacy are intertwined.
2. Social Expectations: There is a common expectation that romantic relationships will progress to include sexual intimacy as a sign of deepening connection and commitment between partners.
3. Language and Terminology: The term "romantic relationship" is often contrasted with "platonic relationship," with the latter explicitly defined as non-sexual. This linguistic distinction further embeds the expectation of sexual intimacy in romantic relationships.

However, it's important to note that not all romantic relationships fit this mold. Some people may identify as asexual, choosing to pursue romantic relationships without sexual intimacy. Others may prioritize emotional and affectionate connections without an emphasis on sex. These variations are increasingly recognized and accepted within English-speaking societies, even if they are not the predominant assumption."

______________

I have had many (okay, several more than many) very loving friendships with married women. In these relationships it was considered quite normal to say "I love you" and to show a lot of affection, including hugs.

I consider it very odd when people think of this kind of friendship as unacceptable or "weird" for married people. But maybe somehow I have missed that it is commonplace. I suppose I tend to hang out with other bohemian rebels like myself, and so my view may be skewed.

 

[Bobbi]

I have had many (okay, several more than many) very loving friendships with married women. In these relationships it was considered quite normal to say "I love you" and to show a lot of affection, including hugs.

I don't think romantic needs to involve sex. The best way I can give examples is how you feel about your mother or sibling vs. a romantic partner. You can love all without sex, but the way you feel about a romantic partner would be incestuous with a family member.

Did these married women's husbands have no issues with your affection and the added attention you gave to their wives? Did they even know?

I'm wondering if your behavior was welcome, or if you are understanding your behavior as being very loving, but everyone else is seeing it as just friendly?

It seems as though you don't differentiate between romantic love vs friendly or familial love. Is it possible you are on the spectrum? Understanding these types of feelings can be difficult, if not impossible, for someone on the autism spectrum.

 

[River]

I don't think romantic needs to involve sex. The best way I can give examples is how you feel about your mother or sibling vs. a romantic partner. You can love all without sex, but the way you feel about a romantic partner would be incestuous with a family member.

Incest is all about sex, and doesn't happen without sex. Why muddy it all up with the mere presence of deep affection and love?

Did these married women's husbands have no issues with your affection and the added attention you gave to their wives? Did they even know?

Actually, in the most important recent example where there has been a lot of obvious affection shared, the husband was always present! He didn't seem to be bothered by it at all, as he knows this is just how his wife is with people she loves -- including people she loves platonically.

Love and affection are just that. Sometimes they are "romantic" in nature and other times not. I like to give and receive love and affection with my true friends. And I deeply believe everyone should be free to be loving and affectionate with their friends, of either sex, regardless of whether they are married or not. To think otherwise, to me, is to be very immature in understanding what we are as human beings.

I'm wondering if your behavior was welcome, or if you are understanding your behavior as being very loving, but everyone else is seeing it as just friendly?

I know I may be unusual in this respect, but I regard all deep and true friendships as loving relationships. Yeah, when I was just a boy growing up in America I didn't understand this. But now I do. I grew up. I learned with time and experience. And so this is how I know understand what a real / true friendship to be. I never crossed any boundaries with husbands -- at least none that they indicated were boundaries.

It seems as though you don't differentiate between romantic love vs friendly or familial love. Is it possible you are on the spectrum?

Possible, but unlikely. I'm very good at reading non-verbal signs in people around me--far better than average. And I'm a pretty intelligent guy, with tons of emotional intelligence. A great many very sensitive people (such as myself) probably have some of the symptoms regarded as being on the autism spectrum. Do I have some of these symptoms -- sure. Anyone who is weird / unusual, a free thinker and a sensitive person is likely to have some of these "symptoms".

Why do you imagine that I don't differentiate between romantic and platonic friendship? I do -- and I regard (like most people where I live) romantic love as generally (usually, typically) involving or including that kind or aspect of eros which is sexual desire and activity -- or at least the wish for it at some point.

Understanding these types of feelings can be difficult, if not impossible, for someone on the autism spectrum.

I have emotional intelligence far above average, to say the least. I'm very attentive to non-verbal cues and know what they mean in most if not all cases. My being different from you is not a pathology.


I know my very understanding of what true friendship is may be unusual or uncommon. But, as I said, I now understand (at least for myself!) that a true friendship is a kind of loving relationship. And I do NOT regard loving as dangerous, harmful, potentially explosive or corrosive.. apt to burst into flames.

That's why I believe people who try to intervene into or interfere in other people's loving friendships are mistaken and misguided -- including and maybe especially spouses.

 

[Albert Ross]

My being different from you is not a pathology.

I appreciate this statement. I got some real "There must be something wrong with you, what could it be?" vibes from the "Are you on the spectrum?" remark, even if that's not what was intended.

Just let us not try to diagnose each other over the internet, yeah?

 

[Bobbi]

Actually, in the most important recent example where there has been a lot of obvious affection shared, the husband was always present! He didn't seem to be bothered by it at all, as he knows this is just how his wife is with people she loves -- including people she loves platonically.

This absolutely can happen with certain open individuals! Most poly people as well, but it's one case. To say all of the US is accepting in this way was the point I was arguing.

Love and affection are just that. Sometimes they are "romantic" in nature and other times not. I like to give and receive love and affection with my true friends. And I deeply believe everyone should be free to be loving and affectionate with their friends, of either sex, regardless of whether they are married or not. To think otherwise, to me, is to be very immature in understanding what we are as human beings.

I agree with this completely. But it's not how society and the culture in the US works, sadly.

Why do you imagine that I don't differentiate between romantic and platonic friendship?

Because you asked and looked it up on chat GPT. Sorry if I made the wrong assumption, which I apparently did.