Sanity check?

[lostinlove16]

Just looking to get some other perspectives on my situation:

There is a very convoluted story about how all this came to be, but I will stick to the main points to keep this short-ish. My wife and I (both 39, married 20 years) decided to open the relationship; it was talked about and discussed a lot before the decision was made.

My main boundary was that any guy would have to be ok with me being involved in at least some sexual activity (I was open to how involved that could be).

So wife meets a guy and has a good time for a bit, but he was not comfortable with me, and kind of a jerk, so it didn't last long.

Second guy comes around and is super into her and she into him. We have him over to the house and eventually I attempt to initiate a theeesome. He ends up not being comfortable at the time, but I understand. After some time it becomes clear that he won't ever do it, and in fact isn't really comfortable being part of a 3 person relationship, but wants to be with her long term.

Wife and I have had some issues before, but everything had been going well and I thought we were solid. Apparently not. She's been holding onto the negative feelings, and now wants to separate from our marriage. We still live together, are intimate, and clearly have feelings, but all of a sudden I'm the secondary relationship. She even spent today (Valentine's Day) with him and is spending the night; which she does about once a week, as well. But this isn't a "normal" day.

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do here... I love her dearly and want us to work, but I'm also trying to be understanding and supportive of her in the other relationship. Any advice or just general comments would be appreciated.

*We are both doing individual therapy currently with the plan to join for couples therapy at some point.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi and welcome,

You will find that requiring a new partner of one member of a long-term couple to agree to having sex with that person's partner as the "price of admission" to date them is not usually acceptable to anyone.

What your wife seems to want is polyamory, the ability to love and date more than one person. What these two guys want is to date your wife. What you want is for your wife to find other partners who want her, and also want to have sexual threesomes with you.

There is no guarantee that your wife's other partners will be attracted to you. Whether you are bi and want to actually sexually interact with these guys, or just want a MFM threesome where the focus is on your wife, and you getting to see her being fucked by another, is irrelevant.

Sexual threesomes are quite common in the swinging community. If you and wife both just wanted that, you could explore swinging. You did not include your wife's emotions in your intro. It sounds like she wants emotional one-on-one relationships, one with you, and one with her current dating partner.

Your benefit would be to date others on your own-- men, or women. You do the work, and find your own new partners. Don't expect to tag along and expect others to "pay the price of admission"-- having sex with you, in order to date your wife.

You say you two talked a lot about opening the relationship prior to her actually starting to date. But if you didn't do any reading, please see our Golden Nuggets section, especially the articles here:

https://polyamory.com/threads/most-commonly-cited-resources-articles-books-websites-podcasts-etc.155304/

You don't sound insane. Just unprepared.

 

[lostinlove16]

Hi and welcome,

You will find that requiring a new partner of one member of a long-term couple to agree to having sex with that person's partner as the "price of admission" to date them not usually acceptable to anyone.

What your wife seems to want is polyamory, the ability to love and date more than one person. What these two guys want is to date your wife. What you want is for your wife to find other partners who want her, and also want to have sexual threesomes with you.

There is no guarantee that your wife's other partners will be attracted to you. Whether you are bi and want to actually sexually interact with these guys, or just want a MFM threesome where the focus is on your wife, and you getting to see her being fucked by another, is irrelevant.

Sexual threesomes are quite common in the swinging community. If you and wife both just wanted that, you could explore swinging. You did not include your wife's emotions in your intro. It sounds like she wants emotional one-on-one relationships, one with you, and one with her current dating partner.

Your benefit would be to date others on your own-- men, or women. You do the work, and find your own new partners. Don't expect to tag along and expect others to "pay the price of admission"-- having sex with you, in order to date your wife.

You say you two talked a lot about opening the relationship prior to her actually starting to date. But if you didn't do any reading, please see our Golden Nuggets section, especially the articles here:

https://polyamory.com/threads/most-commonly-cited-resources-articles-books-websites-podcasts-etc.155304/

You don't sound insane. Just unprepared.

I appreciate the advice and I'll definitely do some reading. To be a bit more clear, when we decided to open the relationship, it wasn't with any poly-intent from either of us, purely physical play with others. Her emotional attachment (2nd guy, first was never anything serious) wasn't planned or sought. It just happened, which I know is always possible.

I guess I am mostly just hurt and needed to vent a bit, because I feel like all my boundaries were crossed, and because I expressed that to her things have only gotten worse.

Also, I did seek out to meet someone else, but it upset my wife so much that I ended it immediately.

 

[abigail]

It's difficult to assess a situation with just one side of the story, but on the surface, I get the feeling that your relationship with your wife was having problems even before opening the relationship. I find this to be very common. Many couples having trouble in their relationship tend to open it up or seek a swinger or poly lifestyle as an attempt to fix it. This usually does not work. My suggestion is that you and your wife fix your relationship first, before introducing other relationships. You can not build a strong poly relationship on a rocky foundation.

Unfortunately, love is not enough to hold a strong relationship. You need to be compatible with each other as well. You may find that you and your wife are no longer compatible with each other.

Good luck, and I hope you figure things out.

 

[Magdlyn]

I appreciate the advice and I'll definitely do some reading.

You're welcome. I am glad you'll be seeking more information about ethical non-monogamy, in all its forms, and how it works.

To be a bit more clear, when we decided to open the relationship, it wasnt with any poly-intent from either of us, purely physical play with others.

Okay. More of a swinging thing. There are things swingers do to prevent emotions from developing. Your wife probably didn't do those things, and here we are.

Her emotional attachment (2nd guy, first was never anything serious) wasn't planned or sought. It just happened, which I know is always possible.

Yes, it happens a lot!

I guess I am mostly just hurt and needed to vent a bit, because I feel like all my boundaries were crossed, and because I expressed that to her things have only gotten worse.

You and she made a rule-- "no emotions allowed." But emotions can't be prevented. Behaviors can.

Also, I did seek out to meet someone else, but it upset my wife so much that I ended it immediately.

Well, that's just her being hypocritical. Polyamory has two sides-- getting to love and have sex with more than one partner is the fun part. Getting okay with your partners doing the same thing is what takes work. It can definitely be done, but when you're coming from a possessive mindset, it isn't easy. But that is her job to do. It's not your job to not date others just to prevent her discomfort.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello lostinlove16,

It sounds like your wife has NRE for this new guy, it is tempting her to put you in second place. You aren't going nuts, this is bad for you and your marriage. You and she had agreements about how the open marriage was going to function; now she is reneging on those agreements. It's good that you are willing to support her if at all possible, but in order for this to work, she has to do her part too; you can't make that happen.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know if this helps you any. Take what helps and ignore what does not.

It sounds like you both talked about an open marriage that was open to casual group sex. Neither of you of you really thought about it being open to other things, like casual sex in pairs only, or even polyamory.

My main boundary was that any guy would have to be ok with me being involved in at least some sexual activity. I was open to how involved that could be.

To me, it sounds like you asked your wife to make a shared agreement with you that whoever she dated had to be up for casual group sex, with you participating in some way, and it sounds like she agreed. But was that in good faith, or did she say whatever just to get to date outside the marriage?

Maybe it was in good faith, but then, when tested "out in the field," wife found out that some guys are into her, but not into this group-sex thing with her and her husband -- even if it's just watching. So the agreement itself was kinda wonky to begin with, maybe even a setup to fail, because how can 2 people make an agreement that impacts a 3rd person, and the 3rd person never got a voice in the agreement making?

Was it all her job? Were you leaving all the arrangements to her? Or were you also dating/seeking potential group sex partners for you and wife? Could she be grumpy if it was all on her, and then you complained she was not doing it right? Maybe you expected perfect right out of the gate with no learning curve.

That sometimes is a bump for people -- the division of labor, or unrealistic expectations of themselves or each other.

Wife and I have had some issues before, but everything had been going well and I thought we were solid. Apparently not. She's been holding onto the negative feelings, and now wants to separate from our marriage. We still live together, are intimate, and clearly have feelings, but all of a sudden I'm the secondary relationship. She even spent today (Valentine's Day) with him and is spending the night; which she does about once a week as well, but this isn't a "normal" day.

That info sounds like poly hell in some parts.

kathylabriola.com - ARE YOU IN POLY HELL?

COMMON PITFALLS IN OPEN RELATIONSHIPS Many people who are in a primary relationship stumble into an outside relationship either by choice or by chance, and once involved, things can go beautifully or can go terribly awry. Here are some of the most common problems that develop and some ideas for

www.kathylabriola.com

I don't know if it would help to have a second opinion, but in case you are looking for one, this might help you find a poly-friendly counselor.

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

www.polyfriendly.org

I guess I am mostly just hurt and needed to vent a bit, because I feel like all my boundaries were crossed and because I expressed that to her things have only gotten worse.

HOW you brought it up might be adding a communication problem.

When your boundaries get crossed, you are supposed to hold them up, enforce them.

If your personal boundary is "I don't loan my things to careless people," and I borrowed your lawn mower and broke it, didn't offer to repair or replace it, and then came asking about your weed whacker, it's on you to enforce your personal boundary and tell me, "No, thanks. I'm not up for loaning my things anymore." You don't send your wife to tell me you don't loan your things, right?

If your wife developed unexpected feelings for someone who didn’t want group play, what boundary is actually being crossed, and how would you enforce it? Would you expect her to end that relationship? Or is it on her to manage her other relationships, and on you to manage your feelings around unexpected things that you two didn't really cover?

It might help to work on better agreement-making and on framing/enforcing personal boundaries clearly in counseling. Reducing bumps from poor communication can make other issues easier to navigate.

Also, I did seek out to meet someone else, but it upset my wife so much that I ended it immediately.

Why would you do that? Wife doesn't manage her own feelings? You have to manage them?

You dating would have been a chance for both of you to practice your “open marriage skills” where you learn how to be a good hinge...

https://www.multiamory.com/podcast/334-what-makes-a-good-hinge-partner

... and she learns how to be a good metamour, just like her dating means she gets to learn how to be a good hinge, and you get to learn your metamour skills.

Are you two a bit "joined at the hip," approaching all this too much like a "group project?" That's a common "bump." Sometimes couples need to detangle a bit for an open setup to work.

https://polyamory.com/threads/most-skipped-step-full-article.157088/

Anyway, just some thoughts. I hope you and wife figure things out.

GL!
Galagirl

 

[lostinlove16]

Thank you all for the input! A lot of the volatility of all this came from a huge amount of NRE between my wife and the new guy, as well as unresolved issues between us. (She admitted to having been hiding her feelings about them from me, and basically hoping they would "go away.") So we are doing counseling and taking things one day at a time for now.

Honestly, I wish they would end/put a hold on their relationship until she and I get a better idea of where our relationship stands, but I also worry that if I'm the one to suggest it, then it will cause resentment. I intend to have a discussion with her about it soon, but I am still weighing the words I want to use for now.

For my piece of mind I have decided that I will no longer let myself feel like the victim. I refuse to mope and stress about every little interaction. I am remembering who I was before this and grabbing that confidence back in my every day life. I have not decided whether or not to get myself back into dating, but I am considering it and what it will do for me at this time.

Again, thank you all so much! It has really helped to have some outside perspective, especially unbiased ones. I'll be browsing the site and doing lots of reading. I also welcome anyone that wants to talk more to send me a message, whether it's for more details or just to chat.

 

[Tinwen]

Honestly, I wish they would end/put a hold on their relationship until she and I get a better idea of where our relationship stands, but I also worry that if Im the one to suggest it then it will cause resentment. I intend to have a discussion with her about it soon, but I am still weighing the words I want to use for now.

Your intuition is right that that might be hard to do without future unwanted effects. NRE is so strong.

There was a post not long ago, from a wife that broke up with her new love because of her husband's discomfort, and half a year later she was still unable to stop thinking about him. She was having a really hard time coping with the breakup. Unfortunately I can't find it

In their case however, they opened up with (perhaps) more consent. In your case it sounds like you intended to open up for sex only - either a huge misunderstanding between you and your wife, or a huge underestimation of the bonding power of intimacy.

 

[dingedheart]

Just looking to get some other perspectives on my situation:

Not sure you’re going to like my perspective.

There is a very convoluted story about how all this came to be, but I will stick to the main points to keep this short-ish. My wife and I (both 39, married 20 years) decided to open the relationship; it was talked about and discussed a lot before the decision was made

Besides talk, how much education did you do collectively or individually?

My main boundary was that any guy would have to be ok with me being involved in at least some sexual activity. I was open to how involved that could be.

That’s not a boundary. It’s a creepy rule. You might want to look up the difference between the two.

So wife meets a guy and has a good time for a bit, but he is not comfortable with me, and kind of a jerk, so it didn't last long.

See creepy rule as to why he’s a kind of a jerk.

Second guy comes around and is super into her and she into him. We have him over to the house, and eventually I attempt to initiate a theeesome. He ends up not being comfortable at the time, but I understand. After some time, it becomes clear that he won't ever do it, and in fact isn't really comfortable being part of a 3-person relationship, but wants to be with her long term.

OMG strike 2. How can that be??

Wife and I have had some issues before, but everything had been going well and I thought we were solid. Apparently not. She's been holding onto the negative feelings, and now wants to separate from our marriage. We still live together, are intimate, and clearly have feelings, but all of a sudden I'm the secondary relationship. She even spent today (Valentine's Day) with him and is spending the night; which she does about once a week as well. But this isn't a "normal" day.

I'd revisit those talks and discussions on how or why you decided to open the relationship. Dig deep on the motivation(s) to see if they still match what’s being expressed today, i.e., negative feelings. You thought “we“ were solid. Maybe you’re dealing with a dishonest broker.

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do here... I love her dearly and want us to work, but I'm also trying to be understanding and supportive of her in the other relationship. Any advice or just general comments would be appreciated.

It doesn’t matter how much you love her. If she’s checked out and has no desire to rebuild, there’s nothing you can do. My recommendation is not to chase her; it will only make it worse.

We are both doing individual therapy currently with the plan to join for couples therapy at some point.

Let us know how that’s going.

 

[lostinlove16]

Not sure you’re going to like my perspective.

Besides talk, how much education did you do, collectively or individually?

That’s not a boundary. It’s a creepy rule. You might want to look up the difference between the 2.

See creepy rule as to why he’s a kind of a jerk.

OMG strike 2. How can that be???

I'd revisit those talks and discussions on how or why you decided to open the relationships. Dig deep on the motivation(s) to see if they still match what’s being expressed today, i.e., negative feelings. You thought “we“ were solid. Maybe you’re dealing with a dishonest broker.

It doesn’t matter how much you love her. If she’s checked out and has no desire to rebuild, there’s nothing you can do. My recommendation is not to chase her. It will only make it worse.

Let us know how that’s going.

I may not agree with it, or even like it, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to listen to it.

I will say, some of your responses come off to me as rude for no reason, but it is what it is.

We clearly didn't do the proper amount of reading/research, but we did talk extensively about opening our relationship over the course of many months before doing so.

My "creepy rule," as you put it, was because at the start of opening up, it was meant to be purely physical/sexual play; a poly relationship was not something either of us were looking for. I don't see how me being willing to share, but not "loan out" or "give away" my wife to others is an issue.

We have and are continuing to talk and be open about our feelings and where we are at in our relationship. She has stated that she thinks it's likely she needs a separation to have time to heal on her side, but there has been no action towards that, as we still live together and are intimate regularly. I am doing my best not to pressure or chase her, but as I have told her, as long as I am here and am her husband, I plan to continue to act like it (with a softer presence to avoid being overbearing).

Therapy has been helpful for me, and best I can tell, she is getting something from hers, as well. When we start anything as a couple I'll be sure to post relevant updates.

 

[Tinwen]

My "creepy rule" as you put it, was because at the start of opening up was meant to be purely physical/sexual play; a poly relationship was not something either of us were looking for. I don't see how me being willing to share but not "loan out" or "give away" my wife to others is an issue.

You are on a poly forum, so you will meet a lot of people who emphasize that your partner is not your property to share, loan or give away. Especially in the traditional polarity of men "owning" a woman, this can ick some people out. Personally, I can see how some monogamous couples will want to "own" each other, and I'm fine with that as long as it's symmetrical. The problem is, feelings often don't follow this pattern. (Another problem is, there's a third person with their own changing desires in play...)

Is/was it symmetrical? Do you feel you belong to your wife so much so that it's her deciding what kinds of intimacy with other people are acceptable? It's possible.

 

[lostinlove16]

You are on a poly forum, so you will meet a lot of people who emphasize that your partner is not your property to share, loan or give away. Especially in the traditional polarity of men "owning" a woman, this can ick some people out. Personally, I can see how some monogamous couples will want to "own" each other, and I'm fine with that as long as it's symmetrical. The problem is, feelings often don't follow this pattern. (Another problem is, there's a third person with their own changing desires in play...)

Is/was it symmetrical? Do you feel you belong to your wife so much so that it's her deciding what kinds of intimacy with other people are acceptable? It's possible.

What I’m hoping to hear is from people who have navigated NRE situations in a way that strengthened or at least helped to limit the damage to an existing relationship.

I can accept that sentiment, and I have worded it poorly as well. When WE made the decision, it was with the goal (at the time) of involving a third person in OUR sex life. There was no intent for either of us to be involved with another person separately.

There is definitely an imbalance, and I plan to talk with her about it, likely tonight, but it does depend on how the day goes. I have my own traumas that make me lean towards simply doing what is going to be "best" for her, even to my own detriment. It is something I am working on with my therapist, as well.

The hardest part I'm facing right now is that she and I have been together for 25 years (since we were 14) and not only do I not know who I am outside of our marriage, I don't want to be anyone other than her husband. (Also being worked on in therapy.)

 

[dingedheart]

I may not agree with it, or even like it, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to listen to it.
I will say, some of your responses come off to me as rude for no reason, but it is what it is.

Very fair point. I apologize.

We clearly didn't do the proper amount of reading/research, but we did talk extensively about opening our relationship over the course of many months before doing so.

It seems like you are here now playing catch up on that front. Is your wife as well, or is she off in la la land?

My "creepy rule," as you put it, was because at the start of opening up was meant to be purely physical/sexual play; a poly relationship was not something either of us were looking for. I don't see how me being willing to share, but not "loan out" or "give away" my wife to others is an issue.

So this started out with the specific intention of being a hotwife situation…ish?

We have and we are continuing to talk and be open about our feelings and where we are at in our relationship. She has stated that she thinks it’s likely she needs a separation to have time to heal on her side, but there has been no action towards that, as we still live together and are intimate regularly. I am doing my best not to pressure or chase her, but as I have told her, as long as I am here and am her husband, I plan to continue to act like it (with a softer presence to avoid being overbearing).

Heal from what?

Therapy has been helpful for me, and best I can tell, she is getting something from hers as well. When we start anything as a couple I'll be sure to post relevant updates.

Good luck.

 

[lostinlove16]

Just to give a small update:
We are still making an attempt to work things out while doing our individual therapies. She has agreed to not give up on "us" until we at least get to do some couples therapy as well.

I am not seeing anyone or seeking anyone else yet, but I am going out on my own and giving myself space. And she has agreed that I deserve the opportunity.

If anyone has any more questions please dont hesitate to ask.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi lostinlove16,

Thanks for that update. It sounds like things are looking up just a little, I know things have gone in a direction which was not quite expected. Please keep updating us as your therapy continues.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[lostinlove16]

Just following up again:
Last night I went out on my own for a few hours, nothing crazy, just hit up a local bar that has some arcade games and hung out for a bit under 3 hours. The main point was to be on my own and finding some independence. Overall it was good, but I feel awkward just being by myself; I'm sure it will normalize soon as long as I keep at it.

One of the parts of me being out is that I don't have to tell my wife where I go or what I do, and she isn't supposed to ask. I can, of course, offer up the information if I want. She seems to be struggling with that part, even though she was the one stating she didn't really want to know any details. I could tell she definitely wasn't happy about not having any details, although I did tell her where I went for the time. I know it's not my problem and she has to work through it herself, and I'm not letting it stress me out.

So, I'm short. No huge changes, but it feels at least that some progress is being made, even if it's just my own independence!

 

[Magdlyn]

It sounds exactly like you're following the advice given in the article "The Most Skipped Step"! Good job.

 

[Tinwen]

One of the parts of me being out is that I dont have to tell my wife where I go or what I do, and she isnt supposed to ask. I can, of course, offer up the information if I want, She seems to be struggling with that part, even though she was the one stating she didn't really want to know any details. I could tell she definitely wasn't happy about not having any details, although I did tell her where I went for the time. I know it's not my problem and she has to work through it herself, and I'm not letting it stress me out.

You'll work that out.

Personally, I would not be happy without an overall picture - not a play by play, but I like to hear and tell as much as "I met such and such, we had tea, were/weren't intimate, the mood was great/we had a fight, and now I'm feeling ___". That's kind of enough not create a blank space between me and my partner, and not much more detail then we'd give on a typical "how was your day?" question.

 

[lostinlove16]

You'll work that out
Personally I would not be happy without an overall picture - not a play by play, but I like to hear and tell as much as "I met such and such, we had tea, were/weren't intimate, the mood was great/ we had a fight and now I'm feeling ___". That's kind of enough not create a blank space between me and my partner, and not much more detail then we'd give on a typical "how was your day?" question.

I would have no problem relaying any details. She is the one who had established that she didn't want to know what happened.