The Second Start

[polytriad]

The second start

Hello all,

My wife and I started having a NSA physical relationship with one of my old female friends. It started developing into more then that very quickly, which we all acknowledged. But we didn't do anything to slow down. It ended as quickly as it started, due to some issues my wife and I had to work out.

Needless to say, my wife and I both had/have strong feeling for our sweet sweet Nikki. My wife had always looked at being with women as just a sexual thing, until Nikki, and had never thought of having an emotional relationship with a female. During the abrupt ending of our NSA thing that started to not be so NSA, Nikki and I had sex, with the understanding that my wife and I were done. Wrong. My wife felt betrayed, and reverted back to: "Women are for sex, and men suck."

I'm happy to say we worked things out. I confessed that I talked Nikki into sex under the premise that my wife and I were done. I mean, come on, she moved out. I told her that Nikki was really only trying to comfort me. With time and communication, we were able to get past all that, because we were all friends prior to our NSA dealings.

Okay, that is the background. Now on to the "second start" question.

My wife, Nikki and I have decided to give the triad another shot, with a new understanding, and a new approach to pace and communication.

The current situation is that my wife and Nikki are dating each other, and Nikki and I are just friends. They go out on dates and make day plans. Once they re-connect and get that spark back between them, we will connect all the parts (meaning, we will all be together). I am cool with it. I want them to be close, because if I feel like my wife and I are close, and like Nikki and I are close, I think my wife and Nikki should be close, as well.

What is your take on this setup? Do you think that its a good idea? Do you see problems from rising from this situation? How can I give them space, without making it seem like I'm being standoffish because I'm jealous or upset (which I'm not)?

Thank you for reading this whole thing. And thanks for your thoughtful response.

 

[CielDuMatin]

What is your take on this setup?

Pretty much my standard answer-- if it works for all three of you, then more power to ya!

Do you think that it's a good idea?

It's a Good Idea if it meets the needs of the three of you. Nobody else has any right to tell you otherwise, and is just meddling, in my opinion.

Do you see problems from rising from this situation?

Since I don't know the individuals involved, that is a very difficult question to answer.

How can I give them space without making it seem like I'm being standoffish because I'm jealous or upset?

The answer to this is both simple and complicated. Communicate, and do it a lot. Make sure that all three of you understand each other's hopes and expectations, to the point where there is no doubt. A lot of the secret of making this work is developing trust between you, trusting that you know what the other wants out of it, and that they aren't hiding it, or leaving out "inconvenient truths."

When you talk about this, work through the logistics of the dynamics of your relationship, including alone time for each of you individually. As couples and people have different needs, it's important to understand them, so you can plan around them.

 

[polytriad]

If it works for all three of you, then more power to ya!

It's a Good Idea if it meets the needs of the three of you. Nobody else has any right to tell you otherwise.

Since I don't know the individuals involved, that is a very difficult question to answer.

OK the answer to this is both simple and complicated. Communicate, and do it a lot. Make sure that all three of you understand each other's hopes and expectations, to the point where there is no doubt. A lot of the secret of making this work is developing a trust between you, trusting that you know what the other wants out of it, and that they aren't hiding it or leaving out "inconvenient truths."

When you talk about this, work through the logistics of the dynamics of your relationship...

My concern is that all of the separate relationships could create an issue in making it to the "goal" of being in one relationship with the three of us. I feel like we should be doing it all together. Even though I am okay with the status quo, it just feels like there will be problems with connecting as one unit, if so much time is being dedicated to the separation.

 

[CielDuMatin]

My concern is that all of the separate relationships could create an issue in making it to the "goal" of being in one relationship with the three of us. I feel like we should be doing it all together. It just feels like there will be problems with connecting as one unit, if so much time is being dedicated to the separation.

Well, do the three of you share that goal? If so, then you will all be working toward that. How to find out? Talk about it! If you do not all share that goal, then it's going to be a frustrating struggle to make it happen.

Most people feel better with letting each relationship develop as it will, organically. You have four relationships that can each develop-- the ones between each pairing (3), and the one of the three of you together. Spending time to nurture each of these, and to see where they go, is very important. I would advise against trying to make it fit some mold or pre-conceived idea, if you can. Let it be whatever it will be.

 

[polytriad]

Do the three of you share that goal? If so, then you will all be working toward that. How to find out? Talk about it! If you do not all share that goal, then it's going to be a frustrating struggle to make it happen.

Most people feel better to least each relationship develop as it will, organically. You have four relationships that can each develop-- the ones between each pairing (3), and the one of the three of you together. Spending time to nurture each of these and to see where they go is very important. I would advise against trying to make it fit some mold or pre-conceived idea. Let it be whatever it will be.

WOW. I totally get that. I feel so much better after reading that. Thanks. You are quite wise.

 

[JonnyAce]

The only concern I would have is: what happens if they don't reconnect in that way? You did say that they've been going on dates, so maybe that reconnection has happened already, but you seemed to indicate that they are trying to figure that part out.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

Missing?

Hello, Polytriad. I'm left with one question bothering me. What's the real connection with you and your wife? The fact that there were serious enough issues between you two for her to move out tells me there's more to the story here. Something seems missing. Was that radical move all about Nikki? My instinct (only that) says no. But I suppose it's possible. People have been known to take all manner of radical action in a fit of anger. But I think you have to look deep into that, not for any of us on the forum, but for yourselves.

Good luck. A happy triad can be a wonderful thing.

 

[polytriad]

What happens if they don't reconnect in that way? You did say that they've been going on dates, so maybe that reconnection has happened already, but you seemed to indicate that they are trying to figure that part out.

Well, it seems as though they have connected in that way. But since this is my wife's first "feelings" relationship with a woman, she doesn't know when is when. Since Nikki has already been in a girl/girl relationship, she is just moving at the pace of the slowest common denominator (i.e., my wife).

As for what happens if they don't connect. I don't know. I am in love with Nikki, so I don't know how I would handle that. I don't want to resent my wife for preventing us from being together, yet I don't want to upset my wife by being with Nikki without her.

What's the real connection with you and your wife? There were serious enough issues between you two for her to move out... there's more to the story here. Was that radical move all about Nikki? My instinct says no, but I suppose it's possible. People have been known to take all manner of radical action in a fit of anger. You have to look deep into that.

There is more to the story of her moving out. We were on a "trial separation." She wasn't sure how we could be separated if we lived together. I told her I wasn't on board. She left anyway. But it seems like it was to prove a point.

 

[polytriad]

Update

Hello, all. Thank you for your input, thus far.

As you know, my wife and Nikki are dating, or together, or whatever you wanna call it at this point...

Nikki recently moved in with us because her living situation imploded, not because it was a "lets move in together" step.

Since I am not involved in their relationship currently, I try to keep my distance, and not involve myself in any of their relationship dealings. However, it's like with me being there, around them all the time, I get pulled in, or they think about how I will feel about something before they do it. And the whole reason why I'm not involved is so they don't have to feel that way.

Today I suggested, in the best interest of meeting our goal (which is to all be in a triad relationship), that I could stay with a friend for a few weeks, so they could have time to focus on connecting with each other. Like I said in my previous post, my wife and I have a connection, Nikki and I have a connection, but my wife and Nikki don't.

What is your take on this solution?

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Have you and your wife actually worked out the issues that lead up to your trial separation and her moving out? Were they because of Nikki, or was she just caught in the cross-fire of a larger issue? Either way, those issues need to be resolved between you and your wife alone, before trying to make something successful with a third.

Nikki recently moved in with us because her living situation imploded, not because it was a "let's move in together" step.

My experience has been that this is never a good idea. Moving in with someone magnifies all the problems that have been lurking beneath the surface. All the couples I've known who have been "forced" into living together prematurely have found the pressure too great, and they either broke up, or moved back into separate homes to keep the peace.

What would Nikki do about her living situation if you guys weren't in her life? Staying with you can be a temporary solution while she gets back on her feet, but may not be a viable permanent solution to her housing crisis. And if the women aren't already clicking, moving in together will only magnify each other's flaws:
"I can't stand the way Nikki leaves her hair in the sink."
"I'm sick of Wifey always nagging me to clean up my room."
Etc.

Since I am not involved in their relationship currently, I try to keep my distance, and not involve myself in any of their relationship dealings.

If you're all living under the same roof, how could you not get involved in their relationship? You love Wifey, you love Nikki, and whatever happens between them is going to have an effect on you. If they have a lover's spat, how will Wifey, to whom you've made a lifelong commitment, feel if you refuse to support her, for fear of upsetting Nikki?

Today I suggested, in the best interest of meeting our goal (which is to all be in a triad relationship)

Be honest: is this "our goal" or "my goal"? Has Wifey expressed a true desire, for herself, to be emotionally involved with Nikki, or is she forcing herself into something in order to please you?

My wife and I have a connection. Nikki and I have a connection. But Wifey and Nikki don't.

People can't force a romance if it's just not there. If two people are meant to be together, then hell and high water can't keep them apart. I don't see your moving out making any difference in the chemistry between them. Meanwhile, by trying to fall in love with someone she has no connection to, she might be missing out on another woman that could drive her heart wild! Is that really what you want for her, just so you can have this poly version of the "white picket fence"?

 

[polytriad]

Have you and your wife actually worked out the issues that lead up to your trial separation and her moving out? Were they because of Nikki or was she just caught in the cross-fire of a larger issue? Either way, those issues need to be resolved between you and your wife alone before trying to make something successful with a third.

Fortunately, Wifey and I took time away from any outside relationships to work on us, which I think we had great success with. Nikki was caught in the crossfire of the larger issue. She was put in the direct line of fire when she and I got sexually involved the night after Wifey moved out. Wifey felt betrayed by Nikki for having sex with me, instead of looking out for her as a friend.

My experience has been that this is never a good idea. Moving in with someone magnifies all the problems that have been lurking beneath the surface. All the couples I've known who have been "forced" into living together prematurely have found the pressure too great, and they either broke up, or moved back into separate homes to keep the peace.

What would Nikki do about her living situation if you guys weren't in her life? Staying with you can be a temporary solution while she gets back on her feet but may not be a viable permanent solution to her housing crisis. And if they aren't already clicking, moving in together will only magnify each other's flaws.

The only thing that really changed as far as her moving in was that she actually has her things at our house now. She was always at our house. It was like we never did anything without her before she moved in, anyway.

She and I have been friends for so long, we don't have any issues lurking beneath the surface. Everything is upfront. I think Wifey and Nikki have been friends long enough to know about the other's pet peeves.

But this situation is temporary, until she can save up money to get her own place. However, we all acknowledge that the situation could change and she might just end up living with us on a permanent basis.

If you're all living under the same roof, how could you not get involved in their relationship? You love Wifey, you love Nikki, and whatever happens between them is going to have an effect on you. If they have a lover's spat, how will Wifey, to whom you've made a lifelong commitment, feel if you refuse to support her, for fear of upsetting Nikki?

Well, I try to not make comments. I try to not pay attention enough to notice anything that would prompt me to say anything. If they had a lover's spat, I would choose to let them work it out. If they asked for my input, I'd offer it. I'm secure enough in my relationships with both to point out who I think is wrong or right.

Be honest: is this "our goal" or "my goal"? Has Wifey expressed a true desire, for herself, to be emotionally involved with Nikki, or is she forcing herself into something in order to please you?

Years ago, when I thought of this idea, I know she was only doing it for me, because she didn't have romantic feelings for another person I had in mind (who we had a brief triad with),

Her words now were, "I don't know what it is about Nikki, but she would be the only person I would be truly interested in having a triad with where I would be doing it for me, rather then just you." The problem was that she didn't know what it felt like to have romantic feelings for a woman. She'd previously only been interested in the sexual aspect of things with women. So to answer you question more directly, no, I don't think she is doing this to please me.

I don't feel that people can force romance if it's just "not there." If two people are meant to be together, then hell and high water can't keep them apart. I don't see your moving out making any difference in the chemistry between them. Meanwhile, by trying to fall in love with someone she has no connection to, she might be missing out on another woman that could drive her heart wild! Is that really what you want for her, just so you can have this poly version of the white-picket-fence?

They are not forcing romance. A better way of describing it is Wifey doesn't know how to "be with" a woman, so she is trying to figure all that out without having me influencing her to be with Nikki as how I, as a man, would be with Nikki. Nikki doesn't want to come on too strong and run Wifey off.

I believe Wifey is head over heels with Nikki, and doesn't know how to partition her love for me and Nikki, and them dating helps her see how I respond to it, and how Nikki responds to it. I know we all have the poly white picket fence in mind for our future. Our lives are already integrated-- kids, family, lifestyle, friends, finances, etc.

My moving out for a while was more directed at how I could give them space to grow, without feeling any pressure from me.

An example would be if PDAs were said to be okay in front of your kids, and you were given the option to choose to kiss or hug in front of them, or without them around, the choice would be without them around, even though PDAs were okay in front of them. The same thing applies to me. I know that I am okay with everything they do, but they have to stop to think about it if I am sitting there, which hinders their progress.

Thank you for your input.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I think I have a better understanding of your situation now. Thank you.

Another possibility for them to grow their relationship could be to actually spend less time together. "Absence makes the heart grow fonder," and all that...

Is there really a "way to be" with a woman, as a woman, that's intrinsically different than the "way to be" with a woman, as a man? I've always just been "who I am" when in a relationship, and gone with the flow. If she takes some cues on how to be with Nikki by seeing how you are with Nikki, and vice-versa (Nikki seeing how you are with Wifey), then you'll all learn things about each other that you might not learn if you try to keep the distance.

But I'm no expert, and if what you're doing is working for your family, then that's what really matters. I just always feel that if something's not working for me, I don't just "do it harder." I try to do something completely different.

 

[polytriad]

Help!

Wifey and Nikki are cuddled up on the sofa, while I am sitting in my Laz-E-Boy. I'm losing it, people. I know I said I was cool with them dating without me. But I want in soooooo bad! I wanna cuddle. I want to hug and kiss them. I have to sit here and watch them do all this right in front of me, as I wish it was me doing those things.

What do I do? If I try to talk to them about it, I will have gone back on my word. I want this to work. I want them to want me involved without me bringing it up. HELP. I need to be talked off the ledge. I'M REALLY LOSING IT!

 

[ImaginaryIllusion]

What do I do? If I try to talk to them about it, I will have gone back on my word. I want this to work. I want them to want me involved without me bringing it up. HELP. I need to be talked off the ledge. I'M REALLY LOSING IT!

If watching is too much stimulus for you, why are you watching it? Why are you in the room? If it's such a temptation, remove yourself.

My wife and I mostly date separately. I deliberately put space between her gfs and myself, even if I am be interested in them, as well. As such, if they’re on the couch being affectionate, I’ll usually be somewhere else.

Go to another room to write on the boards.
Call a buddy to go for a beer.
Find some work to do in the yard or another room.
Go shopping.
Go for a run.
Take a cold shower.
Have a nap.
Whatever.
Do something, and give them their space.

One thing polyamorists are often criticized for (rightly or wrongly) is a lack of self control. Wanting your cake and eating it too is seen as a lack of discipline. Those who live (successfully) monogamous lives deny themselves other partners. They exercise the patience and discipline required to make sure they don’t enter a new relationship, or behave inappropriately if they’re already in one. While polyamory may offer a different perspective on when one can enter into a new relationship, it doesn’t mean patience, self-control or discipline are any less important.

If I understand correctly, you’ve made an agreement to allow them space to develop a relationship on their own terms before you’re brought back into the fold. Why endanger that? Is one night of cuddling worth risking the longer-term happiness of all three of you? Be patient, honour your word, and talk about it later.

I'm probably 6 hours late, but there’s my suggestion.

 

[polytriad]

If watching is too much stimulus for you...why are you watching it? Why are you in the room? If it's such a temptation, remove yourself.

My wife and I mostly date separately.
Go to another room to write on the boards. Call a buddy to go for a beer. Find some work to do in the yard or another room. Take a cold shower. Go for a run. Go shopping. Take a nap. Whatever. Do something, and give them their space.

I understand where you are coming from. I appreciate your suggestions. My problem is that if I get up and leave the room or go somewhere else that will then prompt questions, such as why I'm leaving. And in the essence of being honest, I would tell them, thus making me go back on my word and making me look like I can't handle it.

I just endured and did my best to not let it show that I was feeling left out.

Thanks for talking me down.

 

[Ceoli]

Questions... such as why I'm leaving. And in the essence of being honest, I would tell them, thus making me go back on my word and making me look like I can't handle it.

I don't see how open honest communication about your feelings in a situation is going back on your word. Did you promise not to say anything, or did you promise not to act on anything?

I wouldn't recommend making promises that involve you having to sit on your feelings and not communicate.

 

[polytriad]

I don't see how open honest communication about your feelings in a situation is going back on your word. Did you promise not to say anything or did you promise not to act on anything?

I wouldn't recommend making promises that involve you having to sit on your feelings and not communicate.

I committed. I said I was okay with them dating without me. I agreed to letting them work on building their relationship without my involvement, physically and emotionally. Now I have to be coy about my feelings, not shine a light on my longing to be involved. I told them I could handle it for the greater good, but it's getting harder and harder each day.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

I committed. I said I was okay with them dating without me. I agreed to letting them work on building their relationship without my involvement, physically and emotionally.

You can't commit to the changes in your emotions. That is an unfair requirement you have put on yourself. Things change - that is guaranteed. If they are "committed" to doing this in a respectful and healthy way, they will understand that.

 

[Ceoli]

I committed. I said I was okay with them dating without me. Now I have to be coy about my feelings and not shine a light on my longing to be involved. I told them I could handle it. It's getting harder and harder each day.

Not being involved in their relationship isn't the same as not being authentic with your feelings. You do have a relationship with Wifey, and that doesn't disappear in this dynamic.

I would suggest a couple of things. First, it's very difficult to commit to feeling a specific way. You can't really say, "I promise to be happy." You can say "I promise that I'll deal with any feelings that come up in X way."

If it were me, I'd say something like, "I promise to honor your relationship and give you as much space as I can. If difficult feelings arise in this, I promise to deal with them as best I can, but I might need support from you as I do this. I also hope in this promise that you will honor my feelings and offer me space to communicate my feelings and support as I deal with them."

Second, I would never make a promise that involves asking anyone in a relationship to sit on, bottle up or otherwise not communicate their feelings. I've never seen good come from setting an expectation that someone suppress their feelings in a relationship.

Just my two cents there.

 

[polytriad]

Not being involved in their relationship isn't the same as not being authentic with your feelings. You do have a relationship with Wifey, and that doesn't disappear in this dynamic.

I have brought this up before with just Wifey. She took it as I was trying to rush them. She accused me of being unable to deal with them being involved without me, when in reality I was just stating that I thought that, because they are both very passive, and I am "thoughtfully aggressive," that I thought it might be a good idea to include me in the relationship, as I could help them get over their passive struggles. I also told he that I wouldn't take it the wrong way if they wanted to tell me I was moving too fast if I was involved, giving them a since of ease, knowing that they could still move at a comfortable pace.

It's very difficult to commit to feeling a specific way. You can't really say, "I promise to be happy." You can say, "I promise that I'll deal with any feelings that come up in X way." I'd say something like "I promise to honor your relationship and give you as much space as I can. If difficult feelings arise in this, I promise to deal with them as best I can, but I might need support from you as I do this. I also hope that you will honor and support my feelings, and offer me space to communicate them."
I would never make a promise that involves asking anyone in a relationship to not communicate their feelings. That's not good.

I really like the way you put this. This is exactly how I feel.

I am overly concerned that I will bring things up, and they will decide to include me, on the basis that I am consistently having issues, instead of just wanting to include me because they are ready.