Unconsciously primary/secondary?

[Valynn]

Ok, out of the blue last month, Anglea, JR & I have become a triad. Which we all enjoy our time together.
We have talked boundaries & have agreed on certain social 'requirements'. Them being the established, long term couple, they both think that their family's take on our poly relationship would be too much to explain. I respect their decision on that. I have realized that I am a solo poly type person anyway, but that is not my issue.

My issue is even though Angela says she is a go with the flow, no label type & doesn't want a hierarchical structure. She keeps saying things that just scream primary/secondary to me, and upset me. And most times it's like she is oblivious to how it sounds.

"I will allow JR to give you orgasms tonight."

Two weeks ago she had a ovarian cyst, one fallopian tube & ovary removed. She cannot have sex until late April. She said when she was leaving the hospital : "Since I can't have sex, neither can you two."

Just this past week JR took me to lunch & to see "How To Train Your Dragon 3". She texts me: " By the way, it would have been nice to ask me if I wanted to see the dragon movie. I would have gone on one of the days this week before or after work. But I am glad you & JR enjoyed it. At least you finally got to have a date with him alone. Get it out of your system."

And this morning, as she was leaving for a work related party. "You can fuck, but you cannot make love."

I don't know how to talk to her without her felling attacked. It's all very subtle and passive/agressive to me. I know that alot of this is coming from her insecurties & unresolved jealousy issues. We both work hard to make her feel loved & appreciated. Especially now that she is still healing. But this still hurts me & I would like to resolve this quickly.
Any & all advice is appreciated.

 

[MayDecember]

Well she definitely likes to put you in a one-down position.

So it seems to me the husband is lacking here. I do not permit this. Despite the fact we do have a wife-mistress model that doesn't give anyone the right to disrespect anyone else.

 

[Valynn]

Well she definitely likes to put you in a one-down position.

So it seems to me the husband is lacking here. I do not permit this. Despite the fact we do have a wife-mistress model that doesn't give anyone the right to disrespect anyone else.

JR is a live-in boyfriend, not husband. Plus he has no experience in poly relationships so I feel he's leaving it up to Angela & I to work through this.

But I agree. I know I need to stand up for myself more, but it's getting the conversation going without tromping on the other persons feelings is what I need to learn. IMO the quicker we can work this out the better we all can be, and communication will flow better..

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know how to talk to her without her felling attacked.

Blue is your job. You are not a mind reader. If you need data, you talk to her.

Green is her job. If she takes things personally and acts out or whatever?That's a skill she might need to grow -- to LISTEN listen and not leap to defensive listening. You cannot grow that skill for her.

Could speak plain. Do your side. And let her deal with her side. Put the onus on her to explain her thinking.

"Angela, could we talk for a minute? (Obtain consent.) I could be wrong but I think I'm getting mixed messages. Could you please be willing to clarify? When I hear you say things like you are "a go with the flow, no label type & do not want a hierarchical structure..." and then I experience you say other things like...

• "I will allow JR to give you orgasms tonight."
  
• "Since I can't have sex, neither can you two."
  
• "You can fuck, but you cannot make love."

I feel confused. To me that suggests that you actually want a primary-secondary model. Is that true? "

I know there's other questions, but start small. Keep it "bite size 1 issue only" to start, esp if she is prone to wigging out.

Galagirl

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Sit them both down and tell them straight that you will not stand for it any more and ask him directly, in front of her, if he plans to let her continue to dictate what is okay between you.

Either that OR I'd start imposing sex bans on them.

 

[MsEmotional]

Forgive me if this is answered in another post, but when you say triad, are you in a romantic relationship with Angela? Or are you more like just good friends?

I ask because some of the things that Angela is saying sound super hierarchical, but also....dominant? Do you have a dominant-submissive dynamic at all with her? Or does she have one with JR? If so, it sounds to me like there might be some bleedover in that dynamic that manifested itself as hierarchy.

It needs to be addressed if this was not something you agreed to, or if the two of you have different ideas about how he dom/sub dynamic should work and what areas of your relationship with JR should be within her control. But it definitely gives you a starting point to bring up what is going on — “I would like to talk about some of the specifics of our power dynamic. There are aspects that I really enjoy like [xyz]. But lately, especially while you are recovering, it has felt like you also want control over my individual relationship with JR. I am not comfortable with that. Can we find a time to negotiate some specifics?”

If you have no prior dom/sub dynamic in this triad, then it sounds like she is being kind of an asshole. (Sorry) I would then defer to GalaGirl’s model for how to bring it up.

 

[Valynn]

Forgive me if this is answered in another post, but when you say triad, are you in a romantic relationship with Angela? Or are you more like just good friends?

It is both. We have been close friends for 6+ yrs. I feel the same level of NRE's for her, as I do for JR.

I ask because some of the things that Angela is saying sound super hierarchical, but also....dominant? Do you have a dominant-submissive dynamic at all with her? Or does she have one with JR? If so, it sounds to me like there might be some bleedover in that dynamic that manifested itself as hierarchy.

Angela and I do not have a dominant-submissive agreement. I do not think JR & her have one either. She is very dominant in her love talk/play. And likes to tell us what to do. It could be bleedover, that is a side I hadn't thought of. Strange cause when I was completely open about all my current relationships. I told her of my soft Dom dynamic with M'lord Sir. She kinda made fun of it, which also hurt.

It needs to be addressed if this was not something you agreed to, or if the two of you have different ideas about how he dom/sub dynamic should work and what areas of your relationship with JR should be within her control. But it definitely gives you a starting point to bring up what is going on — “I would like to talk about some of the specifics of our power dynamic. There are aspects that I really enjoy like [xyz]. But lately, especially while you are recovering, it has felt like you also want control over my individual relationship with JR. I am not comfortable with that. Can we find a time to negotiate some specifics?”

If you have no prior dom/sub dynamic in this triad, then it sounds like she is being kind of an asshole. (Sorry) I would then defer to GalaGirl’s model for how to bring it up.

Maybe a mix of both styles is what I can use.

 

[vinsanity0]

You think that's subtle? You could try being as direct as she is. The things she said we're so absurd they made me laugh. Laughing if someone said those things to me is probably how I would react.

 

[Valynn]

You think that's subtle? You could try being as direct as she is. The things she said we're so absurd they made me laugh. Laughing if someone said those things to me is probably how I would react.

That is the thing. She will say it like she is joking. And part of the time not remember saying it in the first place. She may be joking? But it still doesn't change that it still hurts.
I could also be a bit sensitive to remarks like that due to my experiences in mental & emotionally abusive relationships in the past. I'd rather clear this up now than try to change it later on, especially since it irritates me so.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Valynn,

When Angela says, "I will allow JR to give you orgasms tonight," "Since I can't have sex, neither can you two," "You can fuck, but you cannot make love," or similar ... you could say, "Are you serious?" It's kind of like calling her out while at the same time getting confirmation on your guess that she is just joking (or that she fancies herself to be joking). As it stands, you are just guessing, and that's not good when her comments are so hurtful. At the very least, she is making jokes in poor taste. You need to call it to her attention that she's doing that.

It is odd that she is saying those things.
With regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Valynn]

Another dynamic on all this is; I have never had a relationship with another woman before. All of this is new and I don't want to screw it up.

 

[GalaGirl]

That is the thing. She will say it like she is joking. And part of the time not remember saying it in the first place. She may be joking? But it still doesn't change that it still hurts.

So speak your truth in the moment when it happens.

"Could you please be willing not to joke like that? It's not funny to me."

I could also be a bit sensitive to remarks like that due to my experiences in mental & emotionally abusive relationships in the past. I'd rather clear this up now than try to change it later on, especially since it irritates me so.

Then clear it up.

My Alzheimer father yells all sorts of abuse. When I call him on his behavior the FIRST thing he does is yell "You are too sensitive!" to shift focus away from his behavior and on to this "flaw" of mine for being "too sensitive."

I take the wind out of his sails by agreeing. "That's right. I am sensitive to that. I can see that you are aware of it. What will you do? Could you please be willing to stop that behavior around me since you are aware I am sensitive to that?"

Put the focus back on the poor behavior where it belongs. He can say yes. Then we are good. He can say no. Then I get up and leave the room.

Another dynamic on all this is; I have never had a relationship with another woman before. All of this is new and I don't want to screw it up.

What is "screw it up?"

I think you could just be honest, up front, and speak your truth. Accept not everyone you date will be deeply compatible. Get on with the business of dating -- FINDING OUT how compatible you actually are.

Galagirl

 

[Valynn]

So speak your truth in the moment when it happens.

"Could you please be willing not to joke like that? It's not funny to me."

Ok, so standing up for myself & asking for more respect will hopefully make her see that she was unknowingly hurting me with her comments. And she will she will stop.

What is "screw it up?"

I think you could just be honest, up front, and speak your truth. Accept not everyone you date will be deeply compatible. Get on with the business of dating -- FINDING OUT how compatible you actually are.

I guess my fears of not being good enough to be in this relationship. For some reason I had a preconceived notion that dating another woman was different. How? I have no idea. Maybe I am overthinking it and I should just relax about this aspect.

 

[GalaGirl]

Ok, so standing up for myself & asking for more respect will hopefully make her see that she was unknowingly hurting me with her comments. And she will she will stop.

Hopefully yes. And if she doesn't? Maybe she doesn't make the cut because she does not meet your personal dating standard. You expect your dating partners to not hurt you. Like once by mistake, alright. They didn't know that thing bugs you. But you make them aware and they keep ON dinging you?

YOU get to choose the company you keep. YOU get to decide who you want to hang around with and if their behavior is acceptable to you.

If she clocks enough poor behavior? Walk away. You are not stuck there.

I guess my fears of not being good enough to be in this relationship.

You ARE in this relationship.

For some reason I had a preconceived notion that dating another woman was different. How? I have no idea. Maybe I am overthinking it and I should just relax about this aspect.

It isn't any different. It's DATING. So date. Figure out if you are actually compatible or what. I think you relaxing about this aspect could help you.

I get it might feel "weird and new." And maybe the last time you felt "weird and new" were long ago for you. To to be at the "weird and new" place again now... makes it EXTRA weird. YKWIM?

But in the end? If you don't really get along and it isn't compatible? You don't have to keep dating her.

Be ok being new. Being in a new thing? You can say "Well, I'm in a new thing, and it's not totally stable yet. New situation, still getting to know each other, etc."

That doesn't mean YOU are insecure. Why internalize it like you stink or something?

Galagirl

 

[Valynn]

Hopefully yes. And if she doesn't? Maybe she doesn't make the cut because she does not meet your personal dating standard. You expect your dating partners to not hurt you. Like once by mistake, alright. They didn't know that thing bugs you. But you make them aware and they keep ON dinging you?

YOU get to choose the company you keep. YOU get to decide who you want to hang around with and if their behavior is acceptable to you.

If she clocks enough poor behavior? Walk away. You are not stuck there.

Exactly. And if I am not vocal in what hurts me how will they know? Time to speak up.

You ARE in this relationship.

I have to keep that in perspective. Strange, I hadn't thought of that.

It isn't any different. It's DATING. So date. Figure out if you are actually compatible or what. I think you relaxing about this aspect could help you.

I get it might feel "weird and new." And maybe the last time you felt "weird and new" were long ago for you. To to be at the "weird and new" place again now... makes it EXTRA weird. YKWIM?

But in the end? If you don't really get along and it isn't compatible? You don't have to keep dating her.

Be ok being new. Being in a new thing? You can say "Well, I'm in a new thing, and it's not totally stable yet. New situation, still getting to know each other, etc."

That doesn't mean YOU are insecure. Why internalize it like you stink or something?

Well I know I'm insecure. I should have had some therapy by now (money is tight getting my small business off the ground) I know that I have issues left over from my emotional & mentally abusive marriage. I know I question people's statements towards me.
And it shocks me sometimes how I have 2 amazing people that want me.....ME in their lives.

 

[Magdlyn]

"I will allow JR to give you orgasms tonight."

"Since I can't have sex, neither can you two."

JR took me to see "How To Train Your Dragon 3". She texts me: " By the way, it would have been nice to ask me if I wanted to see the dragon movie. I would have gone on one of the days this week before or after work. But I am glad you & JR enjoyed it. At least you finally got to have a date with him alone. Get it out of your system."

"You can fuck, but you cannot make love."

Yikes.

This is so unfriendly and reeks of a controlling attitude. Why is she in charge of when you and JR can date or have sex?

Finally have a date alone, "get it out of your system?" Is this the only one on one date you're ever allowed with JR?

How do you make sure you and JR only fuck and don't make love? Put bags over your heads and do missionary for 5 minutes, then get dressed and part ways?

If this is a triad, each dyad is its own thing. You and JR, you and Angela, Angela and JR. Each couple is deserving of nurturing.

You're not a shared toy or sex robot. You're a person with rights.

If you're insecure about your value as a human being, a triad is the worst polyamory you can try. It's extremely complicated to try and date 2 people who are in an established relationship, even if they are kind. She's said some very rude and disconcerting things, showing a lack of respect for you, and you're afraid of her feeling attacked? I think she is being territorial and treating you a lesser. A secondary doesn't have to lie down and take this kind of shit.

Please, do not go one more day without reading the secondary's bill of rights.

https://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html

 

[Magdlyn]

You think that's subtle? You could try being as direct as she is. The things she said we're so absurd they made me laugh. Laughing if someone said those things to me is probably how I would react.

Very shocking and the height of rudeness. I would never date someone who would say such things to me.

You're doing polyAMORY but can't make love? Well, then, it's not polyamory this woman wants. She wants a chew toy.

 

[Valynn]

Yikes.

This is so unfriendly and reeks of a controlling attitude. Why is she in charge of when you and JR can date or have sex?

Finally have a date alone, "get it out of your system?" Is this the only one on one date you're ever allowed with JR?

How do you make sure you and JR only fuck and don't make love? Put bags over your heads and do missionary for 5 minutes, then get dressed and part ways?

If this is a triad, each dyad is its own thing. You and JR, you and Angela, Angela and JR. Each couple is deserving of nurturing.

You're not a shared toy or sex robot. You're a person with rights.

If you're insecure about your value as a human being, a triad is the worst polyamory you can try. It's extremely complicated to try and date 2 people who are in an established relationship, even if they are kind. She's said some very rude and disconcerting things, showing a lack of respect for you, and you're afraid of her feeling attacked? I think she is being territorial and treating you a lesser. A secondary doesn't have to lie down and take this kind of shit.

Please, do not go one more day without reading the secondary's bill of rights.

https://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html

Very shocking and the height of rudeness. I would never date someone who would say such things to me.

You're doing polyAMORY but can't make love? Well, then, it's not polyamory this woman wants. She wants a chew toy.

And this is why I wanted advice. I should just trust my gut instincts. My own insecurities make me question everything in a romantic relationship. We have only been a triad for going on 2 months. I plan on having a conversation on this so it will hopefully not be an issue in the future.

 

[MayDecember]

That is the thing. She will say it like she is joking. And part of the time not remember saying it in the first place. She may be joking? But it still doesn't change that it still hurts.
I could also be a bit sensitive to remarks like that due to my experiences in mental & emotionally abusive relationships in the past. I'd rather clear this up now than try to change it later on, especially since it irritates me so.

Oh Jesus.

Standard one-two punch of the manipulator: first the cutting remark. Followed by "just joking", and then the victim is told they "can't take a joke".

A joke is funny to the person listening, not a "joke's on you" ambush.

I noticed you told me you "feel" like the lame boyfriend is letting the two of you work it out. So there is no communication.

It is important to manipulative people not to have everyone comparing notes. So you don't sit down, the three of you, and work this out.

We sure do. Face to face. These are not amazing people. These are crappy people. Until such time as they become decent.

 

[GalaGirl]

Well I know I'm insecure. I should have had some therapy by now (money is tight getting my small business off the ground) I know that I have issues left over from my emotional & mentally abusive marriage. I know I question people's statements towards me.

As you should. Maintaining a healthy skepticism is a good thing.

And it shocks me sometimes how I have 2 amazing people that want me.....ME in their lives.

That's the part I am talking about. You do not stink. It doesn't have to be a shock that people want to date you.

What do you need from you to be ok with that? That you ARE lovable? You have value?

Because your value is an inside job. If you go looking for validation from others around you, like an outside job? You will be left vulnerable to whatever smooth talking smoothie comes along telling your whatever to get in your pants or love bomb you or whatever.

So DO keep a healthy skepticism.

DO remember it's just dating, and in theory, people put their best face out in the early days. This is just 2 months in.

You ARE already in the relationship. So... relate! Participate, speak up. Do the business of dating and getting to know each other. Speak up if people step on your toes. Say "No, thank you. I don't like that. Back up, please!" and "Yes, please. I like that. More!"

Expect people to respect your boundaries. If you get dinged, speak up and request changes. Then step back and see if behavior DOES change. If they accidentally hurt you once. Alright. They did not know. You make them aware. People are not mind readers. But if they keep ON dinging you after you request they cut it out?

If they keep ON dinging you? And this is all they have to offer you for BEST behavior? Pshaw. That's not you being insecure. That's them behaving crap.

Your boundaries are not for them to obey. They are for YOU to obey. And if you have a boundary that says "I don't stick around when people treat me crap" then you know what to do. Here comes some crap? You ask for correction? Still crap? Well... Adios!

Decide from the INSIDE that you deserve to be treated well now, you already clocked your time on bad relationships in the past, and just plain don't feel like doing that again. And YOU decide to walk away. Take back your power.

Don't be all walking on eggshells like "Do I deserve to be in this relationship?" You are already HERE in it!

You do not have to "earn" good basic treatment or "earn" good basic polite. It's basics people give strangers all the time -- the grocery bagger, the mailman, the bank teller. If the person cannot manage basics? Dude, they are undatable to me.

DO get therapy when you can afford it to help heal the past abuse stuff.

But for today? Decide you don't need more new shit. And you don't accept new shit. You already met quota from the past.

If she doesn't meet YOUR personal standard? Shoo! Walk away.

You can do that. YOU get to decide who is worthy of your valuable time and attention, because you have inherent worth and dignity. You don't have to be shrinking yourself here.

Galagirl