"Both people need to understand this isn't about the fun of having multiple partners."
What is it about then?
What is holding people back from trying out poly?
- Thread starter IntuitiveWriter
- Start date
What is it about then?
"Men seem to think if they have the vocabulary of a third grader and a working penis, that they're datable."
The men I was referencing do not fit this description at all. Highly educated, deferential and respectful(probably too much so) to women. As a later 60's cis/het man, my last two GF's have both told me that I am very desirable now, but they would have never dated me in their 20's or 30's. All of us tend to think our experiences are indicative of the situation at large, often they are not.
I love it when women tell me what my experience dating as a man is, especially when they have never met me or know nothing about me. Yhey just assume I am terribly flawed if I stgruggled.
A good education and respect are attractive to many women. What is "too" respectful, btw? Lacking confidence?
I once had a date with a guy who got naked and stood before me and said, "Do with me what you want." I was like, Uhhh... lol Where do I begin? It was so awkward. He didn't get another date. He had absolutely no imagination. A blank, a zero. Jeez, that was the worst sex I've ever had. I won't go into the other details. I once told a male friend who said, "There is no such thing as bad sex," "You should've seen this guy."
I digress.
These men you refer to, did they have any of the below qualities I mentioned I and other women find attractive?
1. They actually like people, and don't just want to get laid.
2. They show this by asking women questions about their lives and actually listening and responding to what they say.
3. They are caring, nurturing, sensitive, strong and kind.
4. They have a certain self-confidence. It might be BDE (haha) or some other je ne sais quoi.
5. They have good manners.
6. They can write a decent English sentence with capitalization, punctuation and other proper grammar.
7. They are consistent with women they are trying to date. They show up in text and on dates.
8. They are interesting, with cool hobbies.
9. They are good lovers, caring, creative. (See above for the opposite haha)
10. They have a job and a car.
11. They have an instinctual or studied understanding of love languages (this goes along with being good listeners and reading body language).
12. They are fine with using condoms.
13. They take care with their grooming and fitness
What things have you learned about yourself and women that makes you more desirable as a 60+ year old than a young man in your 20s/30s? I am actually curious. That could be helpful. I don't know you. You're new here, so it's hard to understand your pov. I am not sure of the point of this thread. If you are successful at dating and relationships, please share your tricks and tips. (I am not being sarcastic.) Thanks.
No, only narcissists think that (and some people on the autism spectrum, my father, for instance. He couldn't understand how anyone could see the world differently from how he did. He had no empathy.)
You don't "love it." That's sarcasm. As I said, I don't know what your experience is. You just got here and started a general thread, with general points to make. When you don't give details, people are forced to speculate. I don't assume you're "terribly flawed." I am not even aware of the specifics of your "struggle." Please feel free to tell your actual story. Were you the guy sitting and swiping on your phone and never getting a first date? When did you first start dating polyamorously? Have you been married most of your life? Are you happily married now? You have a wife and 2 gfs, it seems. How did that come about if you had so much trouble getting dates? We just don't know, so we might be making mistakes in our responses to your complaints.
I am going to go back and see what the actual point of your revival of this thread seems to be...
Your first post:
Can we assume this was your own personal experience? Are you complaining that you are nice and respectful, but it took some time to find the 2 gfs you have now, in addition to your wife? That must have taken patience. You were jealous (perhaps envious) that your wife found men who were interested in her sexually, even "romantically" while you sat at home?
Then you said:
Can we assume this was your own personal experience? Are you complaining that you are nice and respectful, but it took some time to find the 2 gfs you have now, in addition to your wife? That must have taken patience. You were jealous (perhaps envious) that your wife found men who were interested in her sexually, even "romantically" while you sat at home?
Inaniel
Well-known member
I think a common issue for many men, especially those in long-term, deeply entwined relationships or marriages, is the loss of personal identity as it merges with a shared identity. Over time, the comfort of the relationship might lead to taking attraction for granted. For example, a man who once wore Levi's and a leather jacket might end up in sweats, an XL T-shirt, and poorly kept facial hair after 15 years of marriage. While a dedicated spouse might claim she wouldn’t want him any differently, strangers he meets will feel otherwise.
Some couples might have a very attractive shared identity, and this might not be a problem, but if dating is a struggle this is likely not the case.
I think a typical man’s observations can differ from what someone like Magdlyn sees because most of us guys have friends who are genuinely good people with strong virtues but still struggle in their dating lives. Conversely, we’ve also witnessed friends who are abhorrent, womanizers, manipulators, or players achieve wild success with women. I’ve known men who’ve said seriously depraved things about women behind their backs, yet because they can put on a good show in front of them, there’s no direct correlation between depravity and dating success. The only reliable correlation I see with success in dating is social aptitude.
So, when I hear a woman complain about men on dates (which happens a lot here), I don’t assume he was hopeless or a bad person. I just assume his social skills are miscalibrated. Conversely, when I hear a woman gush about a man, I don’t assume he’s inherently a great suitor or a better partner than anyone else; I simply assume he is well-calibrated.
Because men often see behind the curtain via friendships, the reality of dating can be confusing.
I can say with high confidence that the more impressed a woman is with a man at very early stages is often only correlated to his ability to manipulate that response out of her. Of course, he is typically found out over time because one cannot pretend forever... I think that’s why many guys bail after a few dates—they’d rather ghost than risk being found out for using a gift card to pay for dinner and borrowing their mom’s car to make the date in the first place.
I also wonder whether dating advice can even be broadly applicable or if it is just a reflection of someone’s personal preferences. For example, I would advise avoiding social pandering to fit others' ideas when you don’t agree with them. Yet, I notice this trait in many men, so I question whether it’s genuinely attractive or if it’s just part of my selection process. After all, I’m opinionated, and anyone who’s with me would need to handle that aspect of my personality.
Anyway, with all that in mind, and from someone who does not struggle with dating anymore, I would encourage anyone struggling to seek out a plethora of resources out in the world about dating in general because it carries over in poly dating.
My poly specific advice might look something like this:
1. Deconstruct couple’s identity and re-discover yourself.
2. If you haven’t had a lot of success in dating, try a friends-first approach. Put yourself out there by volunteering your time, join a volleyball club, tennis club ect..
3. Don’t limit yourself to poly-dating. There are so many incredible open-minded women in the world who don’t fly the poly flag. In real life, and on average I have not found poly identifying women to be less jealous, controlling, or inclined to force the dynamic into a relationship escalator than non-poly identifying women.
4. If online dating. Pay for the app. Put tons of effort into your photos, and make sure you have one picture of you in a group of friends, family, coworkers, with your grandma, or anyone else you can think of. This is important because it communicates that you are someone who has social accountability in your life. (That pic where you’re drunk at the bar with a “hot babe” does not count. Delete that one.)
5. Great dates lead to relationships. Figure out how to have amazing dates. It does not have to be extravagant or expensive.
When I lived in Arizona, I dabbled in hockey for fun, which meant I knew that after they leveled the rink, all the shaved ice would be dumped in a big pile behind the facility. I used this knowledge to surprise women on dates by taking them snow sledding in a hot desert climate—an unexpected and unique experience that cost me nothing. It allowed me to share something personal, create a memorable moment, and, frankly, it led to a lot of sex. More importantly, many of my dates were so impressed by the experience that they told me it was the best date they’d ever had. You must involve yourself with things if you are ever going to find these opportunities.
Identity + unique and memorable + shared experience = Good date.
I think Magdlyn’s list provides solid general dating advice. I agree with almost all of it, though numbers 1, 5, and 12 are a bit more subjective and closer to personal preferences.
I think many men wonder whether the daunting journey to dating success is worth the effort. Yes, the journey can be empowering and valuable, but it’s not everything. It doesn’t guarantee happiness. If it’s not worth the compromises or effort for you, let it go and focus on what truly makes you happy. Ultimately, that is what is most important.
Some couples might have a very attractive shared identity, and this might not be a problem, but if dating is a struggle this is likely not the case.
I think a typical man’s observations can differ from what someone like Magdlyn sees because most of us guys have friends who are genuinely good people with strong virtues but still struggle in their dating lives. Conversely, we’ve also witnessed friends who are abhorrent, womanizers, manipulators, or players achieve wild success with women. I’ve known men who’ve said seriously depraved things about women behind their backs, yet because they can put on a good show in front of them, there’s no direct correlation between depravity and dating success. The only reliable correlation I see with success in dating is social aptitude.
So, when I hear a woman complain about men on dates (which happens a lot here), I don’t assume he was hopeless or a bad person. I just assume his social skills are miscalibrated. Conversely, when I hear a woman gush about a man, I don’t assume he’s inherently a great suitor or a better partner than anyone else; I simply assume he is well-calibrated.
Because men often see behind the curtain via friendships, the reality of dating can be confusing.
I can say with high confidence that the more impressed a woman is with a man at very early stages is often only correlated to his ability to manipulate that response out of her. Of course, he is typically found out over time because one cannot pretend forever... I think that’s why many guys bail after a few dates—they’d rather ghost than risk being found out for using a gift card to pay for dinner and borrowing their mom’s car to make the date in the first place.
I also wonder whether dating advice can even be broadly applicable or if it is just a reflection of someone’s personal preferences. For example, I would advise avoiding social pandering to fit others' ideas when you don’t agree with them. Yet, I notice this trait in many men, so I question whether it’s genuinely attractive or if it’s just part of my selection process. After all, I’m opinionated, and anyone who’s with me would need to handle that aspect of my personality.
Anyway, with all that in mind, and from someone who does not struggle with dating anymore, I would encourage anyone struggling to seek out a plethora of resources out in the world about dating in general because it carries over in poly dating.
My poly specific advice might look something like this:
1. Deconstruct couple’s identity and re-discover yourself.
2. If you haven’t had a lot of success in dating, try a friends-first approach. Put yourself out there by volunteering your time, join a volleyball club, tennis club ect..
3. Don’t limit yourself to poly-dating. There are so many incredible open-minded women in the world who don’t fly the poly flag. In real life, and on average I have not found poly identifying women to be less jealous, controlling, or inclined to force the dynamic into a relationship escalator than non-poly identifying women.
4. If online dating. Pay for the app. Put tons of effort into your photos, and make sure you have one picture of you in a group of friends, family, coworkers, with your grandma, or anyone else you can think of. This is important because it communicates that you are someone who has social accountability in your life. (That pic where you’re drunk at the bar with a “hot babe” does not count. Delete that one.)
5. Great dates lead to relationships. Figure out how to have amazing dates. It does not have to be extravagant or expensive.
When I lived in Arizona, I dabbled in hockey for fun, which meant I knew that after they leveled the rink, all the shaved ice would be dumped in a big pile behind the facility. I used this knowledge to surprise women on dates by taking them snow sledding in a hot desert climate—an unexpected and unique experience that cost me nothing. It allowed me to share something personal, create a memorable moment, and, frankly, it led to a lot of sex. More importantly, many of my dates were so impressed by the experience that they told me it was the best date they’d ever had. You must involve yourself with things if you are ever going to find these opportunities.
Identity + unique and memorable + shared experience = Good date.
I think Magdlyn’s list provides solid general dating advice. I agree with almost all of it, though numbers 1, 5, and 12 are a bit more subjective and closer to personal preferences.
I think many men wonder whether the daunting journey to dating success is worth the effort. Yes, the journey can be empowering and valuable, but it’s not everything. It doesn’t guarantee happiness. If it’s not worth the compromises or effort for you, let it go and focus on what truly makes you happy. Ultimately, that is what is most important.
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Bobbi
Well-known member
The ability to have multiple, loving, fulfilling, committed relationships with consent of everyone involved.
Bobbi
Well-known member
Dates are as individual as the two people on them. someone's yum is somebody else's yuk.
I went on a date with a guy that told me I'm "hot" so many times in 2 hours I lost count. When I finally told him it makes me feel like a piece of meat, he apologized then proceeded to do it again while saying goodbye. He doubled down by texting me after the date apologizing that he wasn't very present with me and didn't really hear a word I said because he was so distracted because I'm so hot....wtf. I possibly could have liked this guy but he just couldn't get out of his own way.
I'm not saying all men are like him. This was an extreme example, but I'm sure a number of men have something that gets in their way of being successful. They just haven't figured out what it is yet.
Perfectly "good men" (as seen by their friends) might have a habit or mannerism that turns some women off. There's a lot more that makes a man dateable or not. Just because a man thinks their friends are dateable doesn't make it so. They might be a catch if for them but you cannot assume that what a man likes about other men would be the same as what women like. You cannot see through a woman's eyes.
I went on a date with a guy that told me I'm "hot" so many times in 2 hours I lost count. When I finally told him it makes me feel like a piece of meat, he apologized then proceeded to do it again while saying goodbye. He doubled down by texting me after the date apologizing that he wasn't very present with me and didn't really hear a word I said because he was so distracted because I'm so hot....wtf. I possibly could have liked this guy but he just couldn't get out of his own way.
I'm not saying all men are like him. This was an extreme example, but I'm sure a number of men have something that gets in their way of being successful. They just haven't figured out what it is yet.
I agree with what you are saying. There is one thing that I can say with certainty that has been affirmed through experience and in conversations with my platonic women friends:
"A married cis/het man rather mono or poly is a turnoff to most women"
While this might not be true in the closed world of poly communities of which there are very few in this country(USA), it is absolutely true "in the wild"
A married man, mono or poly flirting, in the real world is considered creepy. They can be funny, engaging, handsome, intelligent, kind, tall, emotionally mature, whatever - they will still be treated as a creep by most women, simply because they are married.
Disagree. I remember reading in one or more book about love/r'ships/dating that there's actually something called "pre-selection," which means, in theory, someone in a r'ship is considered more attractive because someone else has already vetted them. I've seen it play out in "the wild," a guy who has dating trouble finally scores an attractive partner, and suddenly women are all over him. I thought my ex husband seemed to get more attention from women once he had his wedding ring on.
I've always thought it spoke well of a man if he's got a partner on his arm who is clearly happy with him, well-cared for & satisfied, makes him super-attractive. Lots of women like men who they see being good fathers, or, in my case, good fur-kid fathers. I don't think being married will stop women from finding a man attractive, quite the opposite. Now, if she wants anything more than a part-time partner, she might decide a partnered guy isn't the way to go, but that's nothing to do with attraction.
I've got this one friend, she only is ever attracted to guys who have wives or girlfriends. Unfortunately, she's not poly she just has affairs. It's a thing.
This happens to women too. This isn't a gender issue. It depends on the person and how they maintain individuality.
Throw in kids and blending can occur even more.
Inaniel
Well-known member
I think preselection can work in a man's favor, but it needs to be in the right context. For example, if he’s the husband of a well-known poly woman in the community or is dating multiple poly women in the community, it may be an intriguing and attractive quality about him.
That’s not the case for most new couples in poly dating, however. Preselection works against you if the spouse is perceived as unhappy or unsatisfied, or if the man is perceived as being cucked.
Being a married man with a happy wife in a monogamous relationship conveys all the things you speak about. There is also a forbidden fruit aspect of a married man, a challenge to get his attention. Which could be what your friend finds so exhilarating about affairs. None of that exist by the context alone in a poly marriage.
I used to joke with some of my guy friends that it’s easier to find a hook-up as a cheating husband than as a poly husband. And while verifiably true, by using that as a strategy you are selecting for women with toxic traits, and for brief relationships, so I would never recommend it.
There are ways a poly husband can exploit pre-selection bias. But I am not of the opinion that having a wife in of itself triggers it.
The question is, does that same concept make it harder for women to find dates just as it does for men?
I think some people interpret my posts as if I don’t acknowledge that women have issues, frustrations, challenges, and concerns. That is not the case. I try not to speak for a woman’s experience because I have never been a woman. So, it’s really just me staying in my lane.
Bobbi
Well-known member
Dates? No. It's easy for women to find dates...low quality dates but if a woman has no standards she can get a date quickly. (Discussed earlier)
Men however don't have a plethora of low quality women vying for their attention who will date them at the drop of a hat.
Interesting note. Based on conversations I've had with men...they see handsome and sexy when they look in the mirror. They also tend to go after what they are attracted to regardless of perceived rank. Women look into the mirror and see their faults, rank themselves and tend not to date above or far below their perceived rank. This is all crappy but if this is in play, it also could be causing the disparity in date availability.
Discussed many times
Interesting. I have body dysmorphia so I dont have that... "view" of myself. However I also feel I am uniquish. My folks are shocked by what I see in myself
Inaniel
Well-known member
Do “low quality women” exist? If so who are they trying to date?
I have observed this with many friends. Men also have fragile egos, which makes it difficult for many of us to make changes. For example, suggesting to a friend that he shave his unruly beard nearly led to an existential crisis. Because of this, I rarely give men advice in real life. If they specifically ask me for dating advice, I include a disclaimer that I am going to be completely honest, they will not like what I have to say, and I hope we can still be friends afterward…
Bobbi
Well-known member
This was meet to be a generalization of how certain individuals can think.
Everyone has their own thoughts of what constitutes low or high quality. What's one person's yuk is another's yum.
Everyone is attractive to someone. And some people generally Accepted as beautiful might be unattractive to others.
Faerie Targaryen
New member
I’ve recently had this feeling gnawing at me and didn't understand what it was let alone have the words. Thank you so much!
Do you have any advice/recommendations regarding how to bring this up with my partner? References will also be awesome. My partner receives information better when I can refer him to sources that prove that it’s pretty standard stuff.
Faerie Targaryen
New member
If I may ask, what was this like for Elijah? Was he seeing other people? Did he ever express being stressed out by being your only ‘partner’ in that sense? Did you practice anything that made it easier for him? I’m guessing that you lived far away enough from each other that getting overwhelmed wasn't as much of a problem. Is that case?
Does your partner do this, incessantly seek new partners, and not put energy into making his time with you fun, quality time? You could approach this in different ways. As for me, I only have two partners, and they are both established, so I do put effort into making things fun with each of them, as much as their schedules and energy levels allow.
My gf has a really busy job and suffers from ADHD, so I sort of have to ground her sometimes, and insist she pay attention to me and our house and dating. But she does understand too, that we as a couple deserve special time, and she suggests great movies and TV shows, and makes sure we take nice holidays with super cool activities.
My bf is newer to poly. He wasn't actively poly before we met; he didn't really know it was an option, even though he was always poly at heart. We both seek a variety of activities with each other though, in and out of bed. Again, there are limits to how much variety we can create... he's a nerd and loves his fantasy books, video games, Marvel movies and YouTubes dissecting those movies and super hero type tv shows. I just have tended to make sure we have a balance of quiet indoor nerdy stuff (I have quirky hobbies too), and more adventurous stuff. He has had a string of dating partners since we met. Nothing has gone beyond about 5 dates though, although I think his latest one does have more potential, so maybe the dating whirlwind variety will settle down some as he gets to know just her.
You might find the poly hell article helpful. Find it in this resource thread:
Faerie Targaryen
New member
It’s a little more complicated than that. My feelings about the lack of excitement between us and his active search are very recent, and in my opinion, tied to his recent experience of some NRE which is pretty much a first throughout the lifespan of our relationship. Otherwise, he wasn't very big on dating. He’s kind of always been morbidly aware that finding a genuine worthwhile polyamorous experience in the kind of environment we find ourselves in...that’s a shot in the dark. So he simply never really actively dated until someone new dropped by at a family function from overseas, and suddenly, he was looking into all the possibilities of a mono-poly relationship. (He made it very clear he was polyamorous and her response was that she had barely even interacted with monogamy but knew she liked all its ideals.)
Anyway, their attempt at a new relationship between them didn't work out for a variety of reasons.
But, from where I was standing in the relationship. it’s like she just dropped in for 2 days and illuminated (to both of us) all the ways we’d become an old couple without noticing.
My response to this uncomfortable situation was to try to rekindle the spark between us, treat each other like the shiny new things I know we once were to each other (even as they tried to build what they were trying to). But from him, it’s like all we talk about now is other people he could possibly be interested in and how he is very much in need of some ‘spice’ so to speak. Granted, a big part of that spice for him is some more sex (I’m on the asexual spectrum, and he’s very not). But basically it feels like we had to face the reality that we hadn't been as involved in seducing each other as we once were, and he would rather try to seduce and be seduced by anyone else.
Faerie Targaryen
New member
Merci!