when is sex, 'sex'?

B

Bluebaron

New member
General question to gauge a consensus:

My wife had recently identified as BI and we are currently in a triad with third person.

We are all happy with this situation but recently we discussed that maybe I would take on another partner. (not something I currently want but as a general discussion).

However my wife views me having sex with another woman as different to her have sex with a woman. I view that as somewhat outdated opinion and that just because I have a penis and she doesn't, it shouldn't take away from the fact that when she sleeps with a woman it it basically sex minus penis.

Thoughts?
 
So when you have sex with your penis with said third person is that “ different “ ???

If you said that same thing in defense of a one penis policy you’d get ripped of being a sexist/ gender phobic ass or something. :D So I agree her opinion is somewhat out dated.


So it sounds like your wife resistant to the idea of you seeking outside partners?
 
I’m confused — you are in a triad with your wife and another woman....so are you having sex (with your penis) with this other woman? And your wife doesn’t consider that sex? Or she does, but she is okay with it because she is also there? Or when you said triad did you really mean Vee?

Regardless, I think your wife is wrong. She clearly has issues around the idea of you having sex with someone else and is looking for a way to justify her discomfort.
 
Hi Bluebaron,

Re: when is sex, "sex?" ... the easy answer is that "sex" = "PIV." However, with the growing acceptance of gay/bi/lesbian interactions, people are starting to realize that the definition of sex is not so simple. One alternative definition that has been put forward is, "sex" = "any activity between at least two people that results in an orgasm." However, it has since been argued that orgasming doesn't *have* to be part of sex. Plus there is some disagreement about whether masturbating counts as sex. So the definition of sex is a highly controversial matter, and I'm not sure a consensus can be arrived at. It's more like you have to look at an individual situation, and then take a "vote" as to whether that counts as sex. Recall the heated controversy raised by President Clinton, about whether a blowjob counts as sex!

I'm not sure your wife (Honey from your other thread) is arguing about whether this or that counts as sex. It's more like she's arguing about whether there are different *kinds* of sex, and what it means if there are. To a certain extent she's right, what she has with your third person (Alice) is lesbian sex, while what you are considering (the idea of you getting your own new female partner) would be straight sex. Where I think she errs is in the idea that lesbian sex "doesn't count." As if it were some kind of inferior sex or "pseudo-sex." Does she really see it that way? or is she just trying to invent reasons to object to you having your own new partner? My advice to her would be to examine her own perspectives and feelings, lesbian sex counts just as much as straight sex.

These are my initial thoughts.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
I agree with the others. Your wife is just attempting to justify her position. She wants to have her gf but doesn't want you to also date. I'm sure if you agreed to not have PIV or PIA sex with any women you date, she'd find another "technicality" to justify why you shouldn't date.
 
However my wife views me having sex with another woman as different to her have sex with a woman.
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So is she cool with you having sex with another dude? Because "same gender" sex doesn't count to her?

Physically? I think it's all sex. Whether it is female-female, female-male, male-male, or whatever other combo.

Emotionally? Maybe yes. It might be a different experience for her to envision (herself sharing sex with a woman) than (envision you sharing sex with a woman.) Because when SHE is the hinge, she knows how she plans to behave and what her intentions are toward the new lover and toward you. She lives inside her head, presumably she knows what goes on in there, right?

When YOU become a hinge? Wife doesn't know how you will behave. This is all new. She may have never experienced this side of you. She doesn't know if you will get all NRE wacky or hold it together well. She doesn't know the meta very well either. She doesn't know what's going on in either of your heads. She doesn't know HERSELF in that situation and how to handle herself/her emotions either. If you date her GF, she might feel "safe" because she picked her and it's still "all in house."

You dating someone else out there in the world requires her to trust you in a brand new situation which could cause her some nerves that being a hinge herself did not raise up. Because now she is NOT the hinge.

Like one thought is happy joy joy -- I get to be the hinge and I have both!

And the other thought is doom -- He's off with a new person. Now what? Will he ditch me in favor of them?

Hinge skills and meta skills are two different things. And for some people one is easier to imagine/deal with than the other.

I view that as somewhat outdated opinion and that just because I have a penis and she doesn't, it shouldn't take away from the fact that when she sleeps with a woman it it basically sex minus penis.

Thoughts?
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I would ask her if this is about sex, or if this is actually about managing her emotions, trusting you not to go all "kid in candy store", both having the relationship skills, etc... but currently couched in terms of sex because she doesn't have the vocab or the ability to articulate what she's going through.

Or maybe it's about control -- like if SHE approves the lover (ex: Alice) it's cool. But if you are out there dating on your own choosing who you date yourself, it wigs her out.

So maybe it all comes out... kinda garbled maybe?

Some things from your old thread...

get that they are caught up in the NRE and Alice doesn't have those kind of feelings for me.
Alice and I get on extremely well, we go out together, talk openly and have a great friendship. When we sleep together as three she's totally into everything and I feel it's all working very well.
I know I will never have the kind of relationship with her that Honey have and I guess I have to deal with that the best I can. It's still early days and we've had so much pressure from each other and people around us. Generally things are going well but yes I do feel that eventually either my relationship with Alice has to move forward or we end up as just friends with her and Honey having a sexual relationship.
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Isn't that the case in any dating situation? An initial spark and some dating... but after a while? Initial compatibility isn't DEEP compatibility. So the people have to decide to invest more time and effort getting to know each other and see what else kindles. Or find out that's all it is, stop trying, call it good enough, and maybe become decent exes and maybe friends. Not everyone one dates is a long haul runner.

You also know group sex is not a poly requirement right?

If you and Alice are good being FWB sometimes and your emotional state is stable? Be that.

If participating that way just messes you up and leads you to pine for Alice as "more like GF" and she's not into that? Don't share sex. Just be friends -- the level you both can agree and feel ok at. And then you don't have inner upheavals all the time.

If this whole thing started triad because that seemed "fair" but the reality is that it more naturally wants to be a V thing? I think you could tell the ladies that you are happy for them, but don't want to force a triad. So you encourage them to keep dating, but you don't want to be involved in the romance. Friendly to Alice and married to Honey, sure. But no triad romance group sex stuff any more.

You take some time to heal from the triad break up. Then down the road you can think about poly dating someone separate if that is something you want to do over time. Or just be an end point in a the V where your wife is a hinge. That's fine too.

Don't go bending yourself into pretzels.

I am looking at my needs and its been established that they cannot be met, (by Alice as a lesbian). If my needs are not being met then again its full circle whether I back out and let Honey and Alice carry on without me, except what Alice it offering, " a companion who deeply cares for me and has sex with me, just not as often as I would like it" (her words!), or be the arsehole and tell Honey to call the whole thing off.
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Um... is that like pity sex? Not a turn on.

Sharing sex leads to feelings, and you are going to feel crap sharing sex with Alice when in your mind she's like the GF you want and cannot actually have.

Could be best to close the door firmly on the whole GF thing with Alice and just be friends, IMHO.

Set healthy personal boundaries.

You may find that you have to set them with Honey too. Because the one in charge of you and your body is YOU. You also chose what you are and are not up for, and if Honey wants this to be like Open/poly for her, but not really for you?

You can say "No, thanks. That's one sided. I have the option to date on my side. I don't want to exercise it right now. I'm willing to give a heads up and go slow if I ever do. But I'm not willing to be in a one side thing where the option isn't even there on my side while you get to enjoy the option on yours."

And Honey can own her emotional management around that. You being clear about your personal boundaries and personal preferences is not you being MEAN to Honey.

Galagirl
 
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Sex is sex and it's outdated to think otherwise. I agree with GG that this is probably less about sex than your wife's insecurities. I feel bad for her female partner because it sounds like she is viewing that as less than a heterosexual relationship.
 
PIV adds the danger of pregnancy. So in that regard, it's obviously another kind of sex. Address that risk explicitly before get into arguing about principles.
 
Thanks for the input, some interesting perspectives and advice.


vinsanity0 said:
Sex is sex and it's outdated to think otherwise. I agree with GG that this is probably less about sex than your wife's insecurities. I feel bad for her female partner because it sounds like she is viewing that as less than a heterosexual relationship.
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That's really where this stems from, she got a bit upset when we discussed the girlfriend issue and I mentioned honey wasn't into it as she views me having sex with another woman as different to her, which in effect devalued her relationship with Alice.

I think mainly it came forma a place of both insecurity and the feeling that if I want sex with another woman its because she is not enough where as if she does it doesn't make me feel that way as I'm a man etc.

BB
 
I think mainly it came forma a place of both insecurity and the feeling that if I want sex with another woman its because she is not enough where as if she does it doesn't make me feel that way as I'm a man etc.
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That makes no sense to me.

You share sex with Alice. If you do that, does Honey sit around telling herself "I'm not enough for him because he shares sex with Alice?"

Or does she think "Well, I want to have sex with her. If he's also having sex with her then he can't complain I'm doing it. It's fair." If so... she's not thinking of Alice as a real person. More living a living sex doll you both get to play with.

Regardless... it's not your job to fix Honey's thinking for her if that's where her thoughts are going. She may have a lot of newbie stuff to unlearn/learn. Hopefully her process in doing that doesn't ding you or Alice.

If you don't want to date right now because you have to deal with a pending triad break up first? Fair enough. Deal with one thing at a time.

But if at some point you plan to date? Give Honey the heads up that you plan to date.

Galagirl
 
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Thanks GG,

Yep I realise its a bit confusing.

I'm really not sure where honey is with it all and I think neither does she. She has less insecurity with Alice as she identifies as a lesbian, clearly having a relationship with me means she's is, at least, in part BI.

From my other thread you can see that our Triad is developing and moving forward so I don't see an impending breakup. Alice has told me that we have an amazing relationship, we date separately together and although Honey is her main priority I am not just a inconvenient second.

I have to believe what she is saying and with that i'm moving towards a full triad relationship, whether that's possible at this stage its hard to tell.

BB
 
What is "full triad relationship" to you?

Not all triangles are equilateral. Yet they could be stable.

I guess it depends on how each person is doing over there if they lay their cards on the table PLAIN as to what they want. No moving goal posts.

If things line up ok because all want more or less matching things? It will probably work out over time.

If not? Then probably no. I guess only time will tell?

Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
When is sex, sex?

Bluntly and broadly, if stimulating your own genitals is masturbation, then stimulating someone else's genitals is sex. Whatever the outcome. And however you do it.
 
Hi BB,

Perhaps Honey is okay with your involvement with Alice as long as it is in a threesome setting, because you "need" Honey to be involved in order to have a threesome ... however Honey is not okay with you being with Alice one-on-one, because then Honey is "not needed" and thus, "not enough." Not enough to be needed at that time. I suppose you could try to explain to her (Honey) that you still need her at other times ... she's still "enough" to be needed at other times ...

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.
 
Evie said:
Bluntly and broadly, if stimulating your own genitals is masturbation, then stimulating someone else's genitals is sex. Whatever the outcome. And however you do it.
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We had a thread going for a long time, called Is Masturbation Sex? or something like that. In general, women seemed to think it was, and men didn't, as I recall.
 
Magdlyn said:
We had a thread going for a long time, called Is Masturbation Sex? or something like that. In general, women seemed to think it was, and men didn't, as I recall.
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Huh, that's interesting that women classed masturbation as sex. If I'm alone, it ain't sex (just my opinion).

But I know the OP was really trying to ascertain if the sex between two women was somehow not on par with sex between a man and a woman (genders contextual to this scenario) and I'm with those who say it's all simply sex because it's two people (again, context) sharing physical intimacy that is bound to include genital stimulation. She doesn't get to split hairs over this.
 
Yep I think I’m with Evie.

Thanks for input, interesting discussion.
 
Evie said:
But I know the OP was really trying to ascertain if the sex between two women was somehow not on par with sex between a man and a woman
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I'm pretty sure that historically, sex between women has never been considered "sex" simply because there is no penis penetration. That's one main reason that lesbian sex has rarely (if ever?) been illegal, at least in Western cultures. The idea that all gender sex is "sex" is a truly recent one. Just pointing out that there is an enormous historical context for the prejudice that sex between women is lesser than and can't really be sex.
 
FallenAngelina said:
I'm pretty sure that historically, sex between women has never been considered "sex" simply because there is no penis penetration. That's one main reason that lesbian sex has rarely (if ever?) been illegal, at least in Western cultures. The idea that all gender sex is "sex" is a truly recent one. Just pointing out that there is an enormous historical context for the prejudice that sex between women is lesser than and can't really be sex.
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Oh, the patriarchy. It rears its ugly head once again.
 
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