How do I even start to explain??

[River]

Thanks Karen. I find your words helpful and beneficial.

... especially this part:

"Collaborative discussions that arise out of joyful inspiration are much more fruitful and nurture an atmosphere of willing cooperation, even where there are significant differences in the participants."

To really apply this, I have to "work on" my tendency to become resentful or angry when I feel my contribution to the creative collaboration is being unfairly rejected. [edit]: Likewise, I need to "work on" my tendency to become "triggered" emotionally when I feel my motivations are continually being judged as less wholesome than I feel they are. My friend often seems to be accusing me of doing what I do for some sort of self-agrandizing purpose, rather than out of the sincere kindness and generosity which is most of my real motivation for what I offer.

In the situation with the collaborator-friend I mentioned earlier, I can't just walk away -- not without the organization we created together falling apart. And I'm too passionately committed to that organization's success to walk away. (It's a non-profit organization with which I am. a founding member in a volunteer position.) I offer what I do to this organization out of the pure joy of experiencing and observing the many benefits it offers to our community. And the conflict has at times made sustaining that joy ... very challenging. But I see now that the joy itself must be my highest priority ... and that I need to bring joy back into my relating with my friend-collaborator.

 

[FallenAngelina]

In the situation with the collaborator-friend I mentioned earlier, I can't just walk away -- not without the organization we created together falling apart. And I'm too passionately committed to that organization's success to walk away. (It's a non-profit organization with which I am. a founding member in a volunteer position.) I offer what I do to this organization out of the pure joy of experiencing and observing the many benefits it offers to our community. And the conflict has at times made sustaining that joy ... very challenging. But I see now that the joy itself must be my highest priority ... and that I need to bring joy back into my relating with my friend-collaborator.

You've just described my marriage, River, and I feel much the same.

 

[River]

Hi Karen -

With a dash of synchronicity feeling, as we were discussing this (in real time) I received an email arrival notification on my screen. I opened the email and it was from one of the people with whom I collaborate in the all-volunteer orgaization I mentioned. Our organization offers -- among other things -- a dance / movement meditation practice (spontaneous, improvisational) in our community -- as a community offering in a gift economy (no fees). It is sometimes supported by live music, and we're trying to form a couple of live improv music ensembles to offer this regularly....

I asked this other fellow collaborator (who is a very talented double bass and piano improvisor) his thoughts about what instruments to bring into the mix. He said:

"I think I'd be reluctant to try and control it or orchestrate it ahead of time. I'd just put out the invitation and see who's interested, who can make it, trusting that it'd have some sort of chemistry. And I would be ok w taking (/sharing that w you or Name Witheld) some minimal directing role, for example, such as saying let's get quieter, let's drop down to fewer instruments, let's build this up etc. It's all a leap of faith..."​

That last phrase "leap of faith" is perhaps the most salient phrase in my life these days. My work absolutley requires it, as no "sane" or "rational" person would believe we can do what we've been doing. And yet we're having real success!

Sometimes the joy is truly overwhelming!

In any case, trying to control things always seems to fail, while taking leaps of faith in human kindness and generosity generally always proves successful -- so long as the joy can be sustained when things look messy and ugly.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from River):

"If there is not already a topic/thread on 'emotional affairs,' perhaps someone (other than me) can post one. I'd participate, though I'd not start the thread myself -- as not to be overly pushy! "

River, I just started one the other day -- with your post in it:

Two (Plus) Tangents from JOA's Thread.

When are you (and bassman! ) going to post there I wonder?

Re (from Journeyofawakening):

"We had a discussion after counselling and he said he feels that the Internet is to blame."

The internet is indeed to blame: for a good thing: the spread of information. For that reason a lot of tyrants will hate the internet. My father blames the internet for the fact that several of his sons left the Mormon church.

Re (from River):

"Look carefully, and you will see that most of religion is very anti-pleasure."

Well stated.

Re:

"If you really want to control large populations, huge empires, you will need a very large prison. So you must enlist everyone as his or her own prison guard. The whole empire must be a prison cell."

Also well stated.

 

[River]

Re (from River):
River, I just started one the other day -- with your post in it:.

I noticed the title of the thread, but I never opened it, or knew what it was about. I guess I would have taken notice if the topic were in the title.

I'll have a look.

 

[kdt26417]

Good deal. Let me know what you think of it.

 

[FallenAngelina]

In any case, trying to control things always seems to fail, while taking leaps of faith in human kindness and generosity generally always proves successful -- so long as the joy can be sustained when things look messy and ugly.

\(^-^)/ \(^-^)/ \(^-^)/

 

[River]

\(^-^)/ \(^-^)/ \(^-^)/

Are these images of flying bats?

 

[kdt26417]

LOL. Yes, three of them. And they're all coming to suck your blood.

Nobutseriously ... I think it's three people cheering. HFA can correct me as appropriate.

 

[IndieSolo]

I see three faces squinting and wiggling their ears.

 

[opalescent]

Kittens.

 

[FallenAngelina]

 

[Magdlyn]

The counsellor is fantastic. I feel very comfortable with her which is great. It went...ok. It was more her trying to get to know us and get an idea of what's going on.

The first appointment or two are always just filling the counselor in on your story.

As far as I can tell, everything is fine between my husband and I, we love each other very much but he is upset and angry with me over polyamory. And I understand that really.

I don't know where you find this "fine" feeling. It seems he loves you, as long as you think like him.

We had a discussion after counselling and he said he feels that the Internet is to blame. That I immerse myself in a virtual world and read all this information. He thinks I've found poly just to justify my actions. So we have a bit of work to do. Seeing the counsellor for another 4 sessions

Is that all your state health pays for? 5 bloody sessions? When my ex h and I were struggling, we went together every week for a year, and we both went to individual counselling once a week as well. He did that for a year. Then our counsellor basically fired him for not making any progress.

I continued to go to individual counselling for 3 years, once a week. Finally I quit going, having learned a lot and been very empowered. A few years later, we separated (I tried too long, I am so stubborn!).

Anyway, it's so odd, in this day and age, to hear a youngish man have that attitude towards the internet.

...my husband has asked me to send him links of what I've been reading about polyamory. Although it feels like he wants to pick holes in it rather than reach some kind of understanding about where I come from.

Well, at least he is willing to read something from the dreaded internet. There are books too, if he'd prefer. Opening Up and More Than Two are probably the best for him. The Ethical Slut is too... slutty, imo.

So at the moment things are good between us. We do love each other very much he just doesn't understand how I can love another or share intimacy with another like I do with him. It's painful for him.

I am glad you liked the counselor and feel loved by your husband, despite his mocking of where you're getting educated. His pain is his to own. Your life is yours to lead. You're no one's slave.

 

[Journeyofawakening]

I don't know where you find this "fine" feeling. It seems he loves you, as long as you think like him.

Ignorance and fear drive me to find the "fine" feeling. I don't do well with change or with conflict. So I guess I'm just seeing him respond positively to me because he thinks he's 'won' and it makes me feel better. Bit messed up really. I'm working on the fear.

Is that all your state health pays for? 5 bloody sessions? When my ex h and I were struggling, we went together every week for a year, and we both went to individual counselling once a week as well....

This isn't state provided, I'm in the UK and we're having to pay for it ourselves. The counsellor seems to think we can air these issues in that amount of time, for both of us to hear each other out.

I am glad you liked the counselor and feel loved by your husband, despite his mocking of where you're getting educated. His pain is his to own. Your life is yours to lead. You're no one's slave.

Why doesn't it feel like that to me?! Gah! Something to do with the 'love and obey' vows I made??

 

[Journeyofawakening]

He's just told me he doesn't see the point of going back to the counsellor. He wants to work on our marriage and has found a (Christian) marriage counsellor but he has told me I need to decide between him or polyamory as he will never have an 'open marriage' with me.

 

[bassman]

He's just told me he doesn't see the point of going back to the counsellor. He wants to work on our marriage and has found a (Christian) marriage counsellor but he has told me I need to decide between him or polyamory as he will never have an 'open marriage' with me.

ohhh dear. no advice to give, but thinking of you.

 

[Nadya]

He's just told me he doesn't see the point of going back to the counsellor. He wants to work on our marriage and has found a (Christian) marriage counsellor but he has told me I need to decide between him or polyamory as he will never have an 'open marriage' with me.

Journey, I really hoped for something else than this. My heart is with you now.

He is asking you to decide between him or polyamory. Is he in fact asking to choose between staying with him or living true to yourself?

He says he wants to work on your marriage. Does he actually mean that he wants to put you back into your place as his wife and stop all this nonsense of you being you?

Stay on your path, Journey! Being poly is not necessarily that important. Being free to think for yourself IS very important.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from Journeyofawakening):

"He's just told me he doesn't see the point of going back to the counselor."

Oh crap.

Re:

"He wants to work on our marriage and has found a (Christian) marriage counselor ..."

His heels are dug in deep, aren't they?

Depending on the counselor, all might not be lost. For instance, would this counselor be willing to read "What Psychology Professionals Should Know about Polyamory," a book by Geri Weitzman, Ph.D., Joy Davidson, Ph.D., and Robert A. Phillips, Jr., Ph.D.?

Re (from Magdlyn):

"It seems he loves you, as long as you think like him."

Alas, that's how I see it as well.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from Nadya):

"Does he actually mean that he wants to put you back into your place as his wife and stop all this nonsense of you being you?"

It sure looks that way, doesn't it?

 

[GalaGirl]

He's just told me he doesn't see the point of going back to the counsellor. He wants to work on our marriage and has found a (Christian) marriage counsellor but he has told me I need to decide between him or polyamory as he will never have an 'open marriage' with me.

Did he clarify where he stands on this: Closed marriage, but he becomes Open and willing to understand and talk your poly thoughts and feelings? Or he rather just not hear about that side of you at all? Where does his willingness lie on that point?

What does "work on the marriage" mean to him? What kind of space is he going to provide in the marriage for you to express your authentic self? None? Does it mean he expects you shut up and stop telling him about your inner life, your questions, your problems? He wants a one way relationship, not a two way street?

Painful as it is, you could get square on that now.

Because if he what he means by "work on the marriage" is that he wants to put you back in a pre-approved box (your outward behavior) and he's not interested in hearing about your inner life (poly thoughts and feelings, problems, ideas, etc) and he wants a one way street (where you exist to help him with his stuff, but he won't help you with yours)? You are not allowed expression of you own at all?

Then I don't see what there is in this marriage that to sustain you that is healthy. It sounds like he does not love you, because he's not interested in knowing authentic you or being your helpmate in Life. It sounds like he loves what you do for him and the services you provide him instead.

The only healthy "one way" relationships to me are with infant/newborns who outgrow it and become two-way relaters as they learn to talk and interact, the sick (who get well again) or the dying (who pass on.) All these cases are temporary, not permanent.

If he's offering you a permanent "one way street" marriage where you basically live in service to him only? You get little or nothing in return? It will be hollow living for you, going through the motions, and emotionally isolated to boot.

I think it is better you part ways and spend the money on a mediator/divorce lawyer to make fair parting agreements than spend it on "going nowhere" counseling with him.

Then see counseling for you alone later to heal from divorce.

I am so sorry.

Galagirl