Religion, politics, sex .. and other taboo subjects

Still watching Black Lightning. Just hokey enough to maintain the "comic book" tone, yet also subversive. The ep I saw last week had an early segment where the music bed was "Drowning" (Mick Jenkins) that ends with a repeated chorus of "I can't breathe... I can't breathe...". :eek: Very effective.
________________

On a completely different note...

One of the odd shows I've enjoyed is Metalocalypse, a short animated program about the megabuck craziness of imaginary death-metal band Dethklok.

In one episode, a main character makes the greivous error of cozying up to a woman who works in the corporate offices; she not only maces him, but sues. As part of the deal, he gets sent to corporate's Sexual Harassment Fun Marathon (two-minute clip of the requisite film on "Compliments As Flirtation").

Okay, I find it hilarious. At the same time, I haven't been in a "respectful workplace" class in 30+ years, & suspect this clip isn't too far from accurate. I'm certainly leery of chatting with a woman at the bar (much less at work!) if I get the feeling that I might EVER find myself attracted.
 
I'm certainly leery of chatting with a woman at the bar (much less at work!) if I get the feeling that I might EVER find myself attracted.

Why? You assume that chatting with a woman you find attractive will be perceived as harassment or threatening? Do you have issues with reading nonverbal cues? Women, generally, signal things like interest or discomfort pretty clearly if you know how to pick up on these things.

We only get annoyed or upset (and even that very typically don't mace or sue anyone, jeez!) if a guy ignores our indications of disinterest and continues to pursue us.

That being said, I strongly believe that even if a woman at work were interested in you, it is a BAD idea to date coworkers. Mostly because if it goes badly, then you can't get away from one another unless one of you quits, and also because some women are pretty chatty about...well...everything...so do you really want everyone you work with knowing all of your intimate secrets? It's just too much potential for discomfort and drama. No matter how available I've ever felt, I have never entertained the possibility of getting involved with a coworker, so I don't flirt with them, but I'm not afraid to chat with any of them.
 
Darn; I overlooked the response.

You assume that chatting with a woman you find attractive will be perceived as harassment or threatening?
To a certain point, yes -- it's the "safe default." Generally, people are kinda cool, & I often enjoy learning about someone new.

So far as attraction, in recent years, I've stuck to the "go slow, then go slower" mentality, & it's kept me from trouble. That tattered adage "the good ones are all married or gay" has been my general experience when getting chatted up by a woman -- add in "maybe two drinks too far into the evening" certainly covers a few more.

To be fair to myself, you overstate my point, turning this into a simplistic either/or (digital) outcome rather than a 0-100 range (analogue); that would be the "I'm certainly leery" part that was skimmed past, in favor of accusatory "assume ... will be" rewrite.

Do you have issues with reading nonverbal cues?
Again: simplistic. The correct answer is "yes & no."

And, again: a propagandistic rewrite to make this about my "issues." Sure, I'm a bit neurotic ;) but that's not germaine.

My abilities are very high, & I'm a moderately skilled cold reader; on a good card night, I'm a dangerous poker player. :)

However, my experience is also that many people carry damage that leads them to broadcast some degree of cognitive dissonance, so their unconscious signals are not entirely consistent with how they would consciously voice their thoughts/feelings. That is to say, a tell is not necessarily conclusive.
Women, generally, signal things like interest or discomfort pretty clearly
IMO, no they don't. I've had women chat me up & gotten a strong impression I'd done something wrong & they were quite angry at me, only to find later that they were strongly attracted. My response to that initial contact is to placate & disengage, which kinda looks like something a reasonable person would do. :rolleyes: Down the road, I find she is -- & maybe others she's told -- miffed because I rejected her advances. :confused:

I doubt you're in a position to speak for all women, but YMMV.

We only get annoyed or upset if a guy ignores our indications of disinterest and continues to pursue us.
Actually, for many years I've watched women find that sort of behavior flattering. :eek: It confuses me.

even if a woman at work were interested in you, it is a BAD idea to date coworkers.
Umm... duh. :D I've got in trouble in these forums for saying such things, actually.

some women are pretty chatty about...well...everything...
Whoops!! :rolleyes: IME, guys are even worse, & knowing "the real deal" about people is a common form of dicksizing, at least out in this area & amongst the blue-collared who constitute the majority of my public life.

do you really want everyone you work with knowing all of your intimate secrets?
Again, anyone who's lived in citified isolation, where people might have no idea who's lived next door to them for decades, is fundamentally incapable of grasping what the social dynamic is like in a rural town. For the most part, everyone literally knows everyone, or knows someone who does.

A few people have Googled me & actually read my book, so I'm sure even more know my beliefs. There's not a whole lot of citified "privacy."

FWIW, I'm dancing around the possibility of getting involved with a co-worker... but it's hardly simple. We work for a company with like 400 employees, scattered across two separate facilities, which between them cover a few square acres. (I've got longterm friends who work 100 feet away who I sometimes don't see for a week at a time.) And she's based in the other building, and works a different shift, so most of our daytime interaction consists of occasionally waving in the parking lot. :rolleyes:
 
Could this all be a generational thing?

Many (of course not all) women my age or older do seem to enjoy being "pursued" or making us work at it. Women around Spork's age, some do, some don't. Getting younger, they seem to not enjoy it much at all ( according to comments I've read).

I remember a facebook thread with mostly 20-somethings indicating that things like smiling at a stranger or paying a stranger a compliment was somehow creepy. They were likening it to sexualt assault. I made a comment along the lines of I didn't think a world with such limited interaction would be a happy place. Of course no one was willing to discuss that concept :rolleyes , but it did seem like that was what they were moving towards.
 
Interesting point. Perhaps the younger generation have grown up with so much screen time that non screen based approaches to flirting are perceived as a physical threat?

Any researchers out there working on this?
 
Odd that you all should be discussing the topic of male pursuit of unwilling females right now. I just had to break up with a bf because he wouldn't stop pursuing my uninterested female partner!

I am not sure if it's a generational thing, to find it creepy when a guy keeps making advances. I haven't personally talked about it with any 20 somethings lately.

But as far as my personal experience: I am 62, my gf Pixi is 40 and my now ex bf Kahlo is 45, almost 46.

He was interested in me for friendship, sex and romance for the first several months of our relationship, and saw Pixi as a friend. But as his NRE began to wane, he couldn't seem to fight his attraction to Pixi. He liked her as a friend. She was "there." In "proximity," to use his word. Of course he'd have to try and fuck her, was his thinking.

He kept staying in my house after I went to bed, to stay up with Pixi for a few more hours, bringing some liquor in from his car, chatting, watching TV with her. Eventually he became more and more "handsy" when he'd be on the couch in the family room with her. Trying to cuddle or touch her leg. She'd say no, she'd move away, he'd follow. She would have to move off the couch and go sit on a separate chair sometimes.

She is a submissive (into BDSM). She has a hard time with not wanting to "hurt someone's feelings." She should have sent him home. But she has a hard time, as a woman, as a sub, as a friend, outright telling someone, "I need you to go home now." It's difficult with guests who won't "take the hint!" And Kahlo was a "nice guy." Smart, fun, funny, entertaining, etc. He had lots in common with both of us and was nice to have around. But all guests need to be aware of when they are outstaying their welcome! Unfortunately some do not pick up on cues that their hostess needs them to leave.

She of course told me this was happening, and I told him it wasn't appropriate. So we both gave him verbal and physical cues that this was not something we were interested in. But for a time, he ignored my feelings on the topic. He used his sex with me as bait for her... and he'd get excited by her and use me as a relief valve since she wouldn't "put out." I accused him of this strongly when we were in the process of really facing the problem. He denied all accusations except the one he couldn't, that he was touching her inappropriately, ignoring both of our physical and verbal cues, and bringing her liquor in hopes that would lower her resistance.

As far as our feelings about it all: I, of course, was hurt to be demoted. Pixi was slightly flattered that he wanted her, but wasn't actually interested in romance or sex with him. She just wanted to be friends. Kahlo depicted himself as a typical "horny male" who was going to try for as much sex with as many women as possible, since he had the proximity. She was "there." She was "nice." Of course he'd try and get with her. We were poly weren't we? Didn't that mean we were both up for grabs? Wouldn't he succeed if he just kept trying?

He couldn't seen to believe we didn't want it. His excited dick overrode the rational part of his brain that should've been his conscience. Ugh. I think all that testosterone makes men insane.

So now, he's lost both of us as friends.
 
So the thing is, when we are talking about dismissive cues and men being persistent or pursuing women, what exactly are we talking about here?

I feel we might not be talking about the same behaviors.

Most women are willing to give a guy the benefit of the doubt (if he seems nice or especially if she knows him) that he might just not be "getting it" and escalate to more and more blatant messages. At first we are diverting our eyes when a man is trying to engage us in some sort of intense connecting conversational moment, and edging away and making and excuse and leaving his area. Let's say he ignores that, and persists. We start to visibly (really how can anyone NOT notice this!) stiffen up, get an agitated energy to us, we appear to anyone with an ounce of sense to be UNCOMFORTABLE and make more determined efforts to be OUT of his physical proximity. If he keeps on, eventually we'll get to a point where (sometimes after processing the whole situation with our female friends so we feel like we're justified in "having a talk" at the risk of hurting his feelings, and not just "overreacting" to him) we will eventually then speak up and tell him his behavior isn't welcome.

Of course some women do have a much shorter fuse and either aren't very nice (the whole "don't want to hurt feelings" thing and the soft "no") or else are simply FED UP and will tell him off quite sooner. This makes some guys pretty angry. Oh, well though.

But if we have reached the point where a woman is giving you a nice no, for the love of heaven take a hint. She's not into you today, she won't be into you in five minutes, or tomorrow, or after a few drinks (and plying women with drugs or alcohol to lower her resistance is disgusting, in my opinion...but then I'm not especially on friendly terms with alcohol or its culture, ubiquitous though it may be.) I have not in my life, met a woman who actually WANTED any man to pursue her if she has verbalized a request for him to stop. We are NOT saying "no" and actually meaning, "try a little harder, baby." Despite what Hollywood has told men way, way too many times.

EDIT: Please bear in mind that I get a bit feisty on the subject, but I think the men HERE are not clueless at all with regard to nonverbal cues or consent culture, but my god I spend too much time talking elsewhere, and it's an elsewhere that includes a fair number of "incels" (has for years and years) and if that weren't enough I've had a dude I've been dealing with in my own life-space who seemed to be struggling to take a hint. Or a conversation. It's frustrating.
 
Last edited:
I wasn't talking about pursuing unwilling women. You may be projecting a bit due to your recent experience. I was talking about initial contact, more or less. Perhaps 'pursuing' was too strong a word. How about "showing interest"?

While I would prefer a straight out "Not interested", I think I pick up on those cues fairly well. However, I have always tended to wait for a woman to show interest in me, so it hasn't been a problem.

And no, I don't think a woman simply being friendly to me is showing interest.
 
I wasn't talking about pursuing unwilling women. You may be projecting a bit due to your recent experience. I was talking about initial contact, more or less. Perhaps 'pursuing' was too strong a word. How about "showing interest"?

While I would prefer a straight out "Not interested", I think I pick up on those cues fairly well. However, I have always tended to wait for a woman to show interest in me, so it hasn't been a problem.

And no, I don't think a woman simply being friendly to me is showing interest.

That's why I started off with "what exactly are we talking about here?" Because I don't think, trying to put myself in the shoes of a man, that showing some friendliness to a woman that I find attractive would be an issue, I would just try to be aware of what she's signalling as to whether my actions were being received as welcome, or bothersome.

Some PEOPLE are open to a friendly chat among relative strangers, and some aren't. I'm as outgoing as they get, and I try to spark up a conversation with a stranger all the time. Some give me the cold shoulder. Some welcome it. In some instances, we hit it off and talk, and those are the ones where, if I were a man who was attracted to a woman, I might suggest meeting another time to continue our talk over coffee.

But another subject that gets mentioned a lot in other conversations I have, is different venues where one might attempt to initiate a dating situation, and I believe the benefit (despite the many pitfalls of it) of online dating is that at least you know they are even available. In the "cold approach" of people in public, there's a good chance they aren't. You don't know. If you know them socially you might have that information, though.
 
I read it as an initial approach thing.
Unwanted persistence is definitely not okay behaviour and I'm sorry to those who have been dealing with this recently.
But (women) reacting to a flirty smile or a compliment or any of those "old fashioned" ways we used to show interest (as opposed to okc/tinder etc) with cries of "creeper, assaulter, predator" is becoming more common, and I'm wondering if the younger generation are so used to dating apps and social media that this is the new norm. First contact is now supposed to be online?
 
I read it as an initial approach thing.
Unwanted persistence is definitely not okay behaviour and I'm sorry to those who have been dealing with this recently.
But (women) reacting to a flirty smile or a compliment or any of those "old fashioned" ways we used to show interest (as opposed to okc/tinder etc) with cries of "creeper, assaulter, predator" is becoming more common, and I'm wondering if the younger generation are so used to dating apps and social media that this is the new norm. First contact is now supposed to be online?

You know, it might be a matter of social skills diminishing in the younger generation in general.

A thought worth thinking about, I guess.

I'm meeting more and more young people who identify as introverts. And just as I'm meeting a lot of males who say that they feel socially awkward, or don't know how to talk to women, I meet many female people who feel more or less the same, awkward, and who seem fairly defensive when anyone gets near their bubble. People who kind of react to a friendly hello with a sense of "What do you want from me?"

But much of my socializing lately goes on in the kink scene and the most usage of words like "creeper" and the like, is from men who are afraid to be perceived as one, not from women who feel that a guy IS one.
 
Possibly related to the present discussion, though maybe deserving its own thread eventually.

No, there's little that's EASY about expressing attraction, except for the blissfully ignorant.

One reason I'm reluctant to date is that I simply know too much about how people manipulate each other, every day, even minute-by-minute, & particularly of those whom they'd swear under torture they love.

Most do this unconsciously or in a Pavlovian manner ("push button, get food"), but knowing so many of the tricks, I constantly interrogated myself. My first lovers were, at the time, at the same stage as me (particularly Crowleyan high magick), & we often traded cross-culture notes & what we'd picked up from classes, seminars, & wild observation; later, people we met were usually exposed to this stuff as we openly commented on it.

Of course, if I met someone new, there was not much "ramp up" time. Generally, I was stuck with being outright truthful; though I never actually said the following, it's an accurate composite: "Hi, you have no idea who I am, but you are the most interesting-looking person in the room, & I'm happily married but I'd like to meet you for dinner sometime." You'd likely be surprised how often such crazed candor resulted in at least a first date.

But nowadays... :eek: I'm out of practice. All the old doubts have crept back in. And though I'm hardly desperate, the "all or nothing" crap from Monogamism has somehow grown in the corners like mildew, at least a little. With that various garbage, I'm interrogating my unconscious again, something most polyfolk have probably never seen the need to attempt.

I cannot recall ever hearing of Gavin de Becker, author of The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence (1998), which sounds like the sort of title I would have come up with. It's about learning to trust your gut instinct & not overrationalize when your ass is telling you to RUN.

Apparently, de Becker looked into abusive & violent incidents, & inquired into the assailant's behavior leading up to assault, noting scripts/games that recurred, which he calls pre-incident indicators or PINS. I immediately recognize most of these: con-game tactics, propaganda, hard-sell techniques, hypnosis, & cold reading (plus works by Dr Paul Ekman), but it's nice to see a brief list that can be more readily grasped by the general public.

What struck me is how often over the years I've had someone mention one or more of these occurring early in dating someone, even the first time they met by accident. Hearing of these tricks did sometimes bug me, but I couldn't discern exactly why, & never noted them as significant. Now, I'm thinking about how much negativity is built into social constructs of stuff like dating & Romance.

Though the Wikipedia article isn't well-written, it has the PINS as follows --
  • Forced Teaming. This is when a person implies that they have something in common with their chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn't really true. Speaking in "we" terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don't need to talk outside... Let's go in."
  • Charm and Niceness. This is being polite and friendly to a chosen victim in order to manipulate him or her by disarming their mistrust.
  • Too many details. If a person is lying they will add excessive details to make themselves sound more credible to their chosen victim.
  • Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: "Oh, I bet you're too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me." The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.
  • Loan Sharking. Giving unsolicited help to the chosen victim and anticipating they'll feel obliged to extend some reciprocal openness in return.
  • The Unsolicited Promise. A promise to do (or not do) something when no such promise is asked for; this usually means that such a promise will be broken. For example: an unsolicited, "I promise I'll leave you alone after this," usually means the chosen victim will not be left alone. Similarly, an unsolicited "I promise I won't hurt you" usually means the person intends to hurt their chosen victim.
  • Discounting the Word "No". Refusing to accept rejection.
He misses a whole bunch of stuff, IMO. For instance, any credible salesperson or junior politician knows how important touch is. Find reason to shake hands with the mark, or to touch their shoulder; in a handshake, use your left hand to cup their elbow, pat their shoulder, or briefly grasp their wrist. It produces a bonding effect, & the mark sees you as more credible & trustworthy. Demanded or forced touch is common among predators as well.

When speaking to a mark, lock eyes as though you're trying to look through their skull. Some say the intent (like crowding their physical space) is to make a mark uncomfortable, then to reveal you're momentarily "harmless" & therefore generally trustworthy.
 
With the foregoing on my mind, I was going to post some thoughts on the interpersonal dynamics of political expression, but I can't get a quotation out of my head.

Though questionably attributed to Margaret Atwood, it pulled me up short.
Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.

Women are afraid that men will kill them.
 
With the foregoing on my mind, I was going to post some thoughts on the interpersonal dynamics of political expression, but I can't get a quotation out of my head.

Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid that men will kill them.


Though questionably attributed to Margaret Atwood, it pulled me up short.

This recalls a frustrating conversation with Dude re: why having strange men catcall and "compliment" you (as a woman) feels threatening and why we, as women, always feel the need to be aware of our surroundings and the actions of people in our immediate vicinity. No, all men are not rapists, and most of the time a compliment is just a compliment. But the consequences for not being on alert are high, and you can't always see it coming (as WAY too many of us know from personal experience).

When that stranger who complimented your outfit/smile/hair a.) views your polite smile-and-nod as an invitation to follow you to your car OR b.) views the fact that you chose to pretend that you hadn't heard him as a personal affront and feels the need to walk after you calling you a "stuck-up-bitch" your choices are a.) not put yourself in the position of walking past them in the first place OR b.) (I won't lie, MY FAVORITE, when you can't avoid it) stop in your tracks and look right at them wide-eyed with your head tilted to one side - and then the other - and then take a half step towards them while muttering (loudly) under your breath about "fuckin' spiders" and "kill them all". (To be fair I did my post-grad work in Philadelphia and had to navigate a lot of dark streets and parking garages at 5 AM - and if it didn't work, then at least if I woke up half beaten to death in the ER I would be able to give a good description.:rolleyes:) Predators prefer for their victims to "follow the script"...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Spork View Post
We only get annoyed or upset if a guy ignores our indications of disinterest and continues to pursue us.
Actually, for many years I've watched women find that sort of behavior flattering. :eek: It confuses me.
Pixi was slightly flattered that he wanted her, but wasn't actually interested in romance or sex with him. She just wanted to be friends.
Well, here's your answer. We may be flattered by the attention but still not interested. If the guy then makes an advance (like decreasing distance), he gets a clearer sign (like pulling back physically). If this happens a few times and the guy still doesn't get it, it gets creepy.

Apparently, de Becker looked into abusive & violent incidents, & inquired into the assailant's behavior leading up to assault, noting scripts/games that recurred, which he calls pre-incident indicators or PINS.
...
What struck me is how often over the years I've had someone mention one or more of these occurring early in dating someone, even the first time they met by accident. Hearing of these tricks did sometimes bug me, but I couldn't discern exactly why, & never noted them as significant. Now, I'm thinking about how much negativity is built into social constructs of stuff like dating & Romance.
Well, thanks for that. I've been always uncomfortable with men trying to hit on me. (All my relationships have grown out of friendships.) I can see from your list how much of their behaviour does signal danger.
 
I find it interesting how people of different backgrounds have different skills when it comes to interpretation and use of all the non-verbal stuff.

I had erratic, sometimes abusive parents. Like sometimes when things were good, they were loving and wonderful, but when Mom was angry, or Dad was drunk, they might do anything. And there were few absolutes, and consistency in the messages and rules I got from various adults...what was accepted with one, would be punished by another. The skills I developed and remember using from childhood, for one, lying. I learned to lie with great skill. I learned to hide myself from notice, just by using body language and eye contact. How to read people's nonverbal cues. I was shmoozing random adults all over my world, but couldn't handle the company of other kids. (Honestly didn't like children much when I was one, and still don't like most of them now, and I think a big part of that is that they were always unresponsive/oblivious, to my more subtle tricks in social manipulation.) But that there, is a key word: manipulation. I've been manipulating people my entire life. Some would recoil in horror from such an admission. But I think, as with most things, intent matters.

If you're manipulating others to ensure your own safety, rather than to take advantage of them for your own gain, there's a pretty big difference there.

Though I admit, I've done both. Of course with age, maturity, and experience, come a greater degree of wisdom and personal ethics. I was not at my most ethical as, say, a teenager.

But I remain, I believe, fairly skilled at reading people, sussing their motivations, and structuring my connections with them accordingly.

Unfortunately perhaps for me, this background, while it gave me survival skills that I consider to be valuable, left me also severely avoidant of direct conflict and confrontation. I have let many people get over on me in one way or another, and still do, and it's not because they outwitted me, I knew it was happening even when it was happening, but just letting them have their way has been more comfortable to me, than confronting them and saying NO in a direct way, which they might argue with or push back more overtly at. When your child self was most terrified by people fighting, you can sometimes I guess, grow into an adult who abhors any kind of a fight.

Looking back at the arc of my lifetime, I have had sex with many men just because I couldn't think of a good reason not to. If I was single. It's why being in a "committed" monogamous relationship can be almost a relief to me. It gives me someone else's rights to protect since I struggle to give weight to my own. What is a momentary conflict with a near-stranger, to a life changing conflict with a partner, after all? I've had friends take advantage of me because saying no when they ask more than I wanted to give (like money) is so uncomfortable. My son walks all over me to this day, and let me tell you...this difficulty I have, is not good for a parent, at all. "Put your foot down!" How?? I see when these instances happen, with perfect clarity, I know exactly what is going on, my gut screams at me to just say no, but I let it unfold anyways.

For me, the subtle stuff is easy. It's the overt, direct stuff that's hard to do.

The basic fact of being female and whatever conditioning I've received from my culture in light of that, I'm sure has not helped, but the roots were in simple childhood family dynamics.
 
Well, thanks for that. I've been always uncomfortable with men trying to hit on me. (All my relationships have grown out of friendships.) I can see from your list how much of their behaviour does signal danger.

But does it really signal danger? As a non-predator surrounded by women who think all men are predators, I have to convince someone I'm harmless. That is, if I go that route.
 
But does it really signal danger? As a non-predator surrounded by women who think all men are predators, I have to convince someone I'm harmless. That is, if I go that route.

One angle I just thought of on this...

You know how many police officers are perfectly decent human beings that you can interact with probably and not have any issue? At least, that's been my experience, right? How many times do you think you'd have to be seriously threatened or scared or hurt by a cop, before you stopped trusting cops, or at least viewed them all as a POSSIBLE source of threat? Now what if the one time you were hurt, it really wasn't your fault, but the whole response from everyone you knew, everyone you told, and everyone on the internet, was to insist that you did something to deserve it? Like no compassion, all blame.

Now I really don't think that all cops are abusive of their power, but I know that some are. And the real problem I've got, is that those who are, even those caught dead-the-rights in serious abuses, often are not punished even remotely close to how a civilian would be for the exact same offense. They are in many ways protected by their brothers in blue, maybe out of a job, maybe not, but surely not going to jail even if they wrongly KILLED someone. That complete lack of accountability and the frequent justification of their wrongdoings and blaming of it on the person they beat, raped or killed in some way, sickens me. It is beyond the character of individuals then. It is an institutionalized thing. And I completely understand why some people are afraid of the police.

Now overlay that dynamic onto the interactions between men and women. Do I feel compassion for good men who are wrongly perceived to be threatening to women? Yes. Do I understand why women use a high amount of caution in dealings with men? Oh, hell yes.

It's not only the rate at which men assault, harass, intimidate, abuse, threaten, stalk, rape, beat, or kill women. Significant though that may be. It's also about a whole institutionalized mindset that lets too many of them get away with it, AND places a lot of blame on the victims when it happens.

You shouldn't have talked to him.
You shouldn't have flirted with him.
You shouldn't have been there.
You shouldn't have been drinking.
You shouldn't have been dressed like that.
You're no nun, why, you've had consensual sex with a number of men, why is it rape this time?
Bruises? Oh, he said you liked it rough. Prove that you didn't consent to that. You can't? Well. He said, she said!

Just like that, what might have destroyed a woman's life, given her PTSD and rendered her unable to ever feel safe in her own skin again, is brushed aside like so much ado about nothing.

Oh, and we're lucky if it stops there. If certain segments of the internet, depending on how public the story goes, get wind of it, we might get hundreds of men threatening to find us, rape us and murder us. I've seen this go down.

So yeah, it's got to suck when a man just wants to try and find a date, and he's got to figure out how to persuade women that he's not a danger to them and all.

But it sucks even more that there are so many reasons why that happens. And far worse when the bad men are not held accountable when it does, which happens way too often. And worse even still when society keeps beating down the victim long after the assault. So since it's on us to "take responsibility" for not becoming victims, this is what you get, guys. Sorry.
 
Just because I whine about it doesn't mean I don't understand it, Spork. I don't blame women for this. I blame men.
 
Just because I whine about it doesn't mean I don't understand it, Spork. I don't blame women for this. I blame men.

Well it sucks for everybody. But I figure, there's no un-ringing the bell right? So all that we can do is "be the change."

Personally, while I get the frustration from both ends, my own approach to it is to try and connect with people-as-people, and have healthier interactions when I can. I do struggle with boundaries once in a while, but for the most part, I think I do ok. The guys who have their heads in a reasonable place, I can easily befriend, and the ones who don't, I can work on nudging.

I'm not sitting in my corner just being pissed off. Most of the time, while (as I totally woman-splained the shit out of it a minute ago) I understand the justification for defensive attitudes...I don't feel like antagonism is necessary or helpful, so I don't tend to default to it when I'm talking to people in life. I guess in my own case, it helps that I am not exactly a smoking hot woman, I'm not ugly but I don't have guys going ga-ga over me usually, and I'm able to do the "friends" thing without it getting confusing, again USUALLY. The guy who gives me the "shmoozing for more" vibe is a rare breed these days.
 
Back
Top