KT's Blog

I'm a bit uncomfortable with all this talk of "hate" on a polyamory forum. Surely the feeling of "hate" in this context is a way of describing a pain response? I find it almost impossible to comprehend "hating" someone that loves your love and that he loves in return. But then I suppose if what LR is saying is true then it is a little more acceptable than hating the love of your life.

You have a lot to think about with all this so I'm not going to overload you, this isn't going to be solved overnight. I will say however that as a mono in a poly relationship I think it is important to find your passion. I think we need to feed our own souls with something that truly ignites us. And we need the support of our partner in helping to make room for it in our life.

Sage, I totally hear you-but often "hate" is the word chosen when someone is ACTUALLY saying,
"this hurts so much that I can't see anything but red through my pain and I feel like the pain would be less to some degree or another if I could place blame".

The truth of the matter is that it doesn't work. But it SEEMS like it would.

On a side note worth contemplation,

Someone once said to me that hate and love are each one side of the same coin-deep passionate emotion and that you can't hate someone that you haven't loved.

Now I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that-it seems to be MUCH too simple and misses some technicalities. BUT-the idea behind it makes perfect sense.
Hating something (or someone) is deeply passionate, and often it's a "coverup" for PAIN. Internal (or external) pride causes us to feel safer expressing that passion in the form of hate and anger than in hurt and desolation.
 
LR - WOW! Not snarky at all - you're right.
I'm glad you took it the way I meant it KT. I know it's hard when it's written to know the actual tone.

I do have a lot of anger and resentment towards my husband. I hate that he did this to me and our marriage. I hate that he is putting his needs before me, our marriage and our family. I hate that he fell in love with someone else - especially someone who is the exact polar opposite of me. I hate myself for being so weak and trusting that I caved into the pressures and guilt he put on me to allow him to have sex with MG in the first place. I didn't want this - but was bullied into letting this happen. I trusted him when he told me it was just sex - no more.
This is key.
I KNOW it's easier to blame the "other woman" (or man). But, the healing isn't in going there. The healing is in focusing yourself on the TRUTH of your emotions so that you can deal with them honestly. ;)

It's ok to feel those things towards him. There is an entire thread about my feelings of similar level upset towards GG (different REASON-same depth of emotion). Only by being HONEST with him about how I felt was I able to start processing my feelings and accepting that I had BOTH the negative AND the positive feelings for him. Also-by being honest with him about it-he was able to look at how he could change things (or not) that could resolve some of the conflicts.

The hardest part is remembering that a relationship (any type, not just romantic) can only be had if BOTH parties are getting their needs met. That requires understanding what each persons needs ARE. People aren't the same. They don't always have the same needs.
GG and I are TOTAL OPPOSITES in MANY ways.
Maca and I are TOTAL OPPOSITES in MANY ways.

In order for each of us to get our needs met, we each must be accepting of the other person having needs that we do NOT HAVE.

For example, Maca is an introvert. He "recharges his batteries" alone. I am an extrovert, I "recharge my batteries" in a social scene. We have to accept that HE NEEDS alone time and I NEED social time. This often means being apart, because the nature of our needs can't be done simultaneously.

(It might be useful for you to buy the book "please understand me II" and do the test, then read about your personality, then do the test as YOU would guess the answers for your husband and read his. Better yet-have him do the test. You may learn a LOT about the NEEDS that aren't being met and be able to de-personalize some things)

I hate myself for not putting my foot down because I didn't want to upset or disappoint him. I am angry at him because he sees how much this hurts me, he sees how this has made me depressed, insecure, anxious - but he places the blame on me. I am open and honest and I admit to these feelings towards my husband. And yes, admitting I feel hatred towards the love of my life is extremely difficult. I have told him how I feel - but his outlook is "it is what it is - accept it and move on." He does feel guilt for causing me hurt - but he is frustrated that I am still struggling. However - I do have hate, anger and resent towards MG for reasons I'm not going to go into. So I do admit to my feelings - what now? Admitting them doesn't make them go away. With my husband - the love I feel for him is strong enough for me to be able to push aside the negative feelings in order to enjoy our time together. But it doesn't last long. That is why we can't seem to go a day or so without fighting. I need to find a way to forgive and forget - my marriage depends on it.
Unfortunately he's right. If your child died... you'd be devastated and there would be nothing you could do about it. They are dead. So do you just die and leave the other child motherless? Or do you learn to accept and move on? It's really a similar type of thing.
Your old marriage died. Do you forego all that can be to grieve that loss, or are you going to let go of it-since it's dead and gone, and learn to accept and move on for the sake of the new marriage you can have with this man you love?

My brain is mono-wired. I don't understand having the ability to love two people (and don't bring up children - it's different.). I do look at his needing her in his life shows a void in our relationship and in me - I take it as a flaw in me. He has pointed out many times what she gives him that I don't. I have told him that I want him to be happy and if she makes him happy then I will let him go. He gives me all I need. I don't have the need to seek out another person. He is all I need. It breaks my heart that after 20 years - he doesn't feel the same anymore.
Mono-wired or not, you can choose to accept the truth and find a happy life, or you can choose to fight reality and be miserable. It sounds harsh-but that is the truth. It does NOT mean you "have to stay". It does mean that if you CHOOSE to stay then YOU are responsible to ACCEPT the TRUTH of what staying means. It means that YOU will be married to a man who is in love with another woman and is continuing to maintain and build a relationship with her.
You are making yourself miserable because you are still holding on to "what SHOULD be" and what is "FAIR".
We don't live in heaven KT. I'm not trying to be a bitch-but we don't. Life isn't fair. Life sucks. We all know it, but as my brother said the other day-each painful breath is also the greatest gift we could ever receive and if we focus on the gift-we can move on.
The book The Seven Levels of Intimacy talks about the fact that we kill our own intimate relationships because we are so busy insisting that we must UNDERSTAND before we can ACCEPT someone. The TRUTH is that if we ever want to TRULY understand someone who is different from us, FIRST WE HAVE TO SIMPLY ACCEPT THEM FOR WHO THEY ARE.

YOU are mono.
HE is poly.

First you accept.
Then you can possibly learn to understand.
But you do not need to understand to accept.

And because I want him to be happy - I'm not asking him to end things with her. But it doesn't mean I have to have her in my life.
No, it doesn't necessarily. BUT-you also can't control other people. Anytime you add a person to your life (in your case I'm referring to adding HIM to your life) you add THEIR RIGHTS to the equation. He has a right to have her in his life and he can choose to increase that time or decrease it at will. Which you can not control. Doesn't make it "right" or "wrong", just stating a fact.
SO-if you want to stay with him, then you need to accept that she will be with him as much as he decides she will be and you will be with him as much as he decides you will be. Because you (and she) can't control him, all of you can only control yourselves.

She accepts her husbands need for DADT - but they are forcing me to welcome her into our lives, our family with open arms. Also - if he fell in love with someone else - would MG be ok with that? Would MG be happy for him? Would she become friends with the new g/f? The answer is NO - she wouldn't. She doesn't want us to go swinging anymore because of jealousy and fear of STD's. But I am supposed to be completely ok with them having sex and being in love? Im supposed to like her and let her into our lives? The hypocrisy is too much!
What she wants/has with her other relationship is not pertinent and it doesn't matter if it's different than yours. Her and her husband define their relationship.
You and your husband define your relationship.
She and your husband define their relationship.
It's only hurting yourself to compare.

Here is an example I gave my husband: if I came home one day Goth - and had Goth friends, went to Goth parties etc (and I'm not knocking Goth - but that is about as far from my appearance and personality as I can get). Would he accept it? Would he go out in public with me? Would he go to Goth parties with me? Or would he say this is your thing - not mine. Would he understand and accept but not want to participate?

Again-while I DO understand what you are saying-it's not pertinent. IF you do/say/become someone he is uncomfortable with, then he gets to choose how to react. HOWEVER-he can't choose if you will be/do/say or become one thing or another.
Likewise you don't get to choose what he will be/do/say or become.

Do I have a passion? No - except for him and our children. Right or wrong - he has been my passion for 20 years. I don't have close friends. I don't have a hobby. I don't have goals. Whose fault is that? Mine - all mine.
From the beginning of your posts on the board you've known this was an issue. You need to stop talking about it adn start doing something about it.
Seriously-I thinkthe biggest thing I see that would concern me is that where you are in this moment is much the same as where you were when you first started posting.
Taking action is NECESSARY for change. Talking is not action. You need to make a decision to DO something and then DO it.
Stop talking about not having a hobby, a goal, a friend, a passion. GO GET ONE.
Not tomorrow-RIGHT NOW. Every change in life starts with a STEP. You aren't taking the step KT.
Stop putting it off.
Stop making excuses.
Pick a day and schedule an activity for EVERY WEEK on that day. No excuses. After 3 months if you don't love the activity-pick a new one.
 
Very much so. MG makes a point to post about how great and supportive her husband has been - when in reality he really wants to know nothing about the situation, does not want to meet 2Rings and doesn't see a need or reason to be included or include 2Rings in their family. Sure, he's not as upset and emotional as I am - but he gets to stick his head in the sand. When I say I don't want her as a part of my life - I'm criticized and resented. Yet I've been here from the beginning of this. I am reminded daily that she's in his life. She buys him things that get brought into our house. They have sex in our truck. I find her hair in our truck, on his clothes, in the laundry, in our tent and sleeping bag. Her husband doesn't get that constant reminder. So yes, I do find it frustrating because I can't just stick my head in the sand or have DADT.

Their relationship isn't your concern or business.
BUT-there is also no reason why you need to continue this drama either. TwoRings can easily clean the car reasonably. Furthermore-not everything needs to be shared.
GG and I NEVER use the same bed, sleeping bag, blankets as Maca and I. I have diffferent nightgowns, toothbrushes, shampoo, toothpaste etc and we LIVE TOGETHER.

He CAN do his own laundry too. I know-shocking as it may seem, but seriously everyone CAN learn to clean up after their ownself. My 10 year old does his own laundry.........

I have extremely low self esteem, depression, anxiety, fear . . . and I know that most of my issues come from that. I'm working on it.
What are you doing to work on it? I ask because I've noticed (as I said before) a lot of talk, but what are the ACTUAL ACTIONS being taken?
 
LR - you make a lot of good points and you've given me a lot to think about. I'm busy with my kids right now so I will respond when they are in bed.
 
Hi LR - I have read and reread your posts to me a few times over the last few days and you have given me a lot to think about.

Before I respond - I want to say that I in no way said what I said about MG's husband to be dismissive, demeaning or judgemental - MG, I am sorry you took it that way.

No - her relationship with her husband is none of my business and I typically never talk about him. SHE mentioned in another post that he wanted DADT - I have known that from the beginning from her, from my husband and from our counselor. I 100% accept his feelings on the issue. He is choosing to support her - but doesn't want to know anything about 2Rings or myself and has made it clear that he doesn't want to meet us or mingle families. She is accepting his needs for that. On the other hand - I am being forced to let her into "our" lives which is not what I want - but I am often criticized by the both of them for feeling that way. That was my only point in discussing her husband.

LR - you are right - I don't have to stay in my marriage - I do have a choice. In making the choice to stay - I am taking the responsibility to accept the way things are. You were ABSOLUTELY right when you said that I am in pain and that I am mourning what our marriage was and would be. But in doing so, I did cause damage to the connection and trust that we have built for the last 20 years. I have decided that my marriage is the most important thing and that I want my husband to be happy - even if it means having MG in his life. I'm not ready to have her in mine - but I am choosing to acknowledge and accept that she is in his. I will appreciate and cherish the times that we are together as husband and wife and as a family - and I will not get upset when he is with her. He has the right to decide how to spend his time, and I have a right to decide how I am going to react to him spending time with her. He is committed to me and our children - and I know he will make it his priority to be with us when he can. I love him with all of my heart and only want the best for him - so does MG. Her and I will have to find a way to make it happen - even if we aren't friends. He chose to have her in his life - I did not, and I should not have to accept her being fully intergrated into mine. Would it make things easier? Maybe, but it's not a necessity.

As for the comments I made about me finding MG's hair everywhere - they are true and it does bother me. Do I look for them? No. Do I think she does it on purpose? No. But, our twelve year old daughter seems very suspicious about MG and has already questioned (while in the truck) who we know who has long black curly hair (I have straight blond and my daughter has straight brown and noone else we know has black curly hair and she knows that MG does). She has brought it up a few times. That can be explained that it is MG's and that Daddy gave her a ride home. It's not so easily explained how that same hair got in our tent, sleeping bag, bed of the truck or laundry. I am primarily concerned about our daughter and her finding out about this. I found her hair on a blanket we used this weekend camping - but I didn't make an issue of it nor did I get upset - I simply threw it out of the tent before our daughter saw. I just hope that for our childrens sake that the two of them will be more careful and conscientious in the future. They may think that its not a big deal - but I do. I am not ready to have my children know.

2Rings and I have had a few serious talks about all of this lately - and I think he understands how I am feeling a little better and I understand that he is not choosing her over me nor is he leaving me for her. Things are improving between us. We had a great weekend and I feel connected with him again. I need to stop worrying about them and start focusing on us.

LR - you asked what I am doing to actively change my issues? I am reaching out to friends more as far as going out and doing things. I am looking for a class to take - but I'm not sure what in yet - maybe cooking. I am choosing to look at the positives in my life and not the negatives. I am being more social and talkative with people. I was seeing a counselor - but stopped due to conflictions with seeing all three of us. I am in the process of finding a new one that only I will see (not them). I met with a psychiatrist and was put on new medications for my depression and anxiety. I am currently reading a book on improving your attitude and my next book is Seven Levels of Intimacy which you have recommended a few times. I am finally being honest about how I feel about MG and my husband. He knows I have felt hate and anger towards him and I sent her an email telling her how I felt about her. It's better to have it all out there than have any misunderstandings. I am doing things to make my husband happy. When he's happy - he shows his love and appreciation for me more. The more he does, the more secure I feel and the better I'll be able to accept this new road our marriage has taken.

I hope I answered everyones questions, suggestions etc. As I have said it a hundred times - I DO honestly appreciate all of the advice, suggestions, honesty and support that I have received on here. I can't think of a single time where someone said something that made me angry or hurt (other than MG.) Thank you to everyone who PM'd me last week with support - it's greatly appreciated!

I want a good life. I want to be happy. I want a good, happy, committed marriage. I will have all of those things - it's all in my control.

Thanks - Kat
 
Kat-
I'm so sorry-but I don't have time right now to deal with giving you a fair or reasonable answer.
There is just TOO much b.s. going on right now (not poly related) here at home.

I DID want to take a quick moment to say that I SEE you responded and I'm very proud of you for taking the time to read and consider the thoughts.

Why?

Because the most important thing about people (including me) responding to you (or anyone else) here is NOT whether or not we are right! ;)

It's whether or not it gets ya thinking and considering options to a better, happier and more fulfilling life.

:)

I'll try to catch up later.

LR
 
Kat-
I'm so sorry-but I don't have time right now to deal with giving you a fair or reasonable answer. There is just TOO much b.s. going on right now (not poly related) here at home.

I DID want to take a quick moment to say that I SEE you responded and I'm very proud of you for taking the time to read and consider the thoughts.

Why? Because the most important thing about people (including me) responding to you (or anyone else) here is NOT whether or not we are right! ;)

It's whether or not it gets ya thinking and considering options to a better, happier and more fulfilling life.

I completely understand. I just wanted to think about everything for a few days before I responded. And I wanted you to know that you do say things that make me think. I need to be honest about things and I can't if I don't take the time to really accept advice or criticism and really think long and hard about where the person is coming from and how I can relate it to me. I hope that makes sense - I'm exhausted and I'm sure I'm not making myself as clear as I want to. If I'm not - I'll try again tomorrow.

Thanks LR - hope things are better.
 
??

Who is this Kattails, and what did she do with my wife? It is a nice change to read a level headed, positive, drama -free post in this thread! I'm glad you enjoyed camping this past weekend, I did too.
 
Who is this Kattails, and what did she do with my wife? It is a nice change to read a level headed, positive, drama -free post in this thread! I'm glad you enjoyed camping this past weekend, I did too.

She's still here and always will be - that's the one certainty in all of this! I have thought about this a lot in the past week or so and realized that a life without you is not a life I want. This is who you are now and this is where our marriage is now. I have to accept that in order to move forward with you into our forever. You don't like everything about me, and I don't have to like everything about you. But I have to accept who you are. And I do. I hope that you can accept me the way I am - monogamous. You have your life with me and the kids - and you have your life with MG. It's going to be a balancing act - but in the end we will all get most of what we want and we'll all be happy. I love you baby - we'll figure all this out!
 
You seem to be doing much better KT and it was nice to see 2rings posting on your blog. I've often wondered who this Romeo who holds two women's hearts so tightly is.

Thanks for your reply to my comment on Ak's blog. I'm struggling a bit at the moment. Ironically it's only a little to do with poly (sadness for Z that his SO has been unavailable to him).

I've put my list of ways I can love myself better up on my bedroom wall so I remember them throughout the day when I get consumed by constant demands.

This morning I dug a bit deeper still and realized that I've still got some rather unhealthy underlying beliefs about "not being deserving" and that "life is a struggle". I asked myself the question: "Why does everything always seem much harder for me than for Z or even my ex-husband" and those two things came into my head.

Take care
 
Hey KatTails, I just read all your blog and wanted to tell you publicly that I think you rock. :D
 
Hey KatTails, I just read all your blog and wanted to tell you publicly that I think you rock. :D

Thank you vodkafan - you really made my day! It's been a crazy rollercoaster ride and I've been very open and honest in my posts. As you've seen - it's not always accepted or appreciated. But this is me - love it or leave it. Being a mono female trying to accept that her monogamous husband of 15 years is in love with someone else - and then hearing the word polyamory and learning all about it and trying to accept this new life - is very emotional and difficult. But I'm still here and I'm still trying to find my footing. It helps having support - so thank you!

Thank you also for the PM - I will reply tomorrow.

Kat
 
monogamous husband

I just want to point out...and this is not an attack but I want you to consider this...

you guys did swing prior to his poly, I think, for a couple of years (I thought I read that before but don't wanna go back)?...he did happen to fall in love at some point. He has not been monogamous for a long time. It might be time to end that type of thinking. Poly is one aspect of non-monogamy. Swinging is also NOT monogamous, if you swung...you aren't monogamous either.

Something to consider :)...

Ari.
 
Swinging is also NOT monogamous, if you swung...you aren't monogamous either.

Something to consider :)...

Ari.

Actually i am understanding it differently now, as i just wrote elsewhere. Swinging is sport sex, there is no emotional involvement and it an be seen by those in it as being monogamous. not to say what swinging is considered by you KT, as being as such.
 
Actually i am understanding it differently now, as i just wrote elsewhere. Swinging is sport sex, there is no emotional involvement and it an be seen by those in it as being monogamous. not to say what swinging is considered by you KT, as being as such.

Everyone is free to define words as they see fit but I am with Ari on this one. Sex outside of a coupling voids the dictionary definition of monogamy.

Wiat now..I am wrong..."Social monogamy refers to two persons/creatures who live together, have sex with each other, and cooperate in acquiring basic resources such as food, clothes, and money."
 
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mo·nog·a·my - n.
1. The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.
2. a. The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.
2. b. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.

I found many different definitions for monogamy and monogamous online. Based on the definition above - you are both wrong - and right.

I define monogamy as having one spouse, creating a life together, planning a future and being committed to only each other. Prior to MG - he had never cheated nor had sex with another person without my knowledge and consent - ie: swinging.

We were not in the swinging "lifestyle". A few years ago - we started talking about swinging and found a swinging website. Through the website - we found a club not too far away and we decided to go check it out. That night - we ended up having sex with each other in a group room. A few months later we went to a meet and greet. There - we both kissed and sucked the nipples of a few women. A few weeks later we went back to the club and met up with a married couple from the meet and greet. We ended up swapping spouses but we were all in the same room. We kept in touch a few times with the couple via email but never met up again. We went back to the club once maybe twice. The last time we went - last October - I had two men suck on my nipple and my husband kissed a woman - but that's as far as it went. We have not been back.

When we started getting interested in swinging - I made it clear that there were 4 rules I wanted: 1. we would only play together and in the same room, 2. we would only play with a married couple, 3. no anal sex and 4. condoms had to be used. Rules 1 and 2 were because I wanted to limit the chance that either one of us would fall in love. 2rings agreed to all the rules.

So yes, we had sex with another couple - but it was a decision we made together and we still held on to the strong beliefs of what our marriage was and with our commitment to each other for a lifetime still strongly intact.

So it really depends on what your definition of monogamy is. As you see - there are many different definitions. Just like there are several definitions of polyamory and different people have different takes on what it means to them. 2rings and MG consider themselves to be polyamorous because they each love two people. However - I am pretty sure that neither one of them would be ok with the other one taking another boyfriend or girlfriend. So are they still polyamourous or are they mono-polyamourous? Are they polyamourous because they truly believe in having the ability to love many people or are they polyamorous only because of their situation? I won't speak for MG - but I know that if I fell in love with someone else - my husband would have a very difficult time with it. He likes the fantasy of thinking of me having sex with another guy - but he would have a hard time accepting me being in love and wanting a future with someone else.

Ari - as far as "He has not been monogamous for a long time. It might be time to end that type of thinking. Poly is one aspect of non-monogamy. Swinging is also NOT monogamous, if you swung...you aren't monogamous either." Prior to him and MG having sex - I considered us both monogamous because we were committed to only each other and we had sex with this other couple with the consent of the other. I still consider myself monogamous because I am still 100% committed to only my husband and do not feel the need to have a relationship outside of our marriage. He is the only man I am intimate with and committed to. He is now in a relationship outside of our marriage and is committed to some type of future with MG - therefor he is no longer monogamous. The day he fell in love with MG was the day he became polyamorous.

I hope that makes sense - if not let me know and I will try to clarify.
 
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I understand what you are saying. You are separating marital commitment from sport sex as RP has above. For me monogamy has always included fidelity. Once you step out of that then its no long monogamy.

I honeslty had never considered that an option. For me it was a VERY binary choice. To expand a little further. In your example my wife and I going back ten years, would have been monogamous the entire time. Even though we took on thirds and had extra marital sex during the entire period. We had an open monogamous relationship by your definition and understanding? That just doesn't wrap itself around my head right. :)...

Ari
 
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I guess we'd need the word "monoamorous" to differentiate between people who only love one person at a time and people who only have one sexual partner at a time.
 
Ari - I think at this point we are squabbling about semantics and personal beliefs and feelings.

I look at it this way - neither of us cheated, we did not have an open marriage, neither one of us had permission from the other to sleep around. We only messed around with the other present. It was all conducted within the parameters of our marriage. From the day he proposed to me (1993) until the first time we messed around with other people (2007) we were 100% monogamous with each other. Our swinging experience was very limited. For about a year prior to him being interested in MG - we were solely monogamous and had not been to the club. Swinging gave me a more open mind - which eventually led me to ok my husband and MG have what I thought would be a one time (maybe two) fling and he would not have done it without my permission! Unfortunately - my fear of them falling in love came true - leading us to learn about polyamory. What you and your wife did in the course of your marriage can only be labeled by you - and it's really only important to you two.

I asked my husband what he thought and he said "I agree, we were open to finding others for sex, but it wasn't what I would term ''an open marriage''. It definitely wasn't cheating . . . I never gave the labels much thought, but to be accurate, no, we we'ren't monogamous. We were in a committed relationship, but we stopped being mono the moment we took up swinging."

So we all see things differently - but in the end - does it matter? It is what it is. I am monogamous - I do not have another lover and personally, I don't feel the need for one. If things change - it's something my husband and I will discuss before anything happens. He is currently polyamourous - but he won't be taking another lover and if things don't work out with MG - I'm pretty sure he is not going to go looking for someone else.

We are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs - and I love getting other peoples point of view!

Thank you!

Kat
 
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