Primary partner denying sex after childbirth

[PolyQ]

I am in a hierarchical poly V relationship. I'm the secondary partner, and always have been. My partner had a baby with his primary and now, as a result, and at her request, is not allowed to have sex with me.

I had assumed there would be a break, and when the break went on longer than I expected I said that I was happy to wait. And so I waited.

I'm now in the position where I don't know when this is ever going to end. I have articulated that I can't wait forever, and his response, which I have so much deep empathy for, as a mother myself, is that he doesn't know when his partner will be ready.

What do I do?

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

His Primary requested that he, the Hinge, not share sex with you. I don't see what Primary's reason is for the request. Is Primary overwhelmed with newborn things and scared of another one appearing too soon? Could that fear be addressed another way, rather than intruding on your relationship with Hinge?

Whatever the reason, Hinge has decided to tell you that his Primary made a request of him to refrain from sharing sex with you. And now Hinge is framing it like "he's not allowed to share sex," rather than framing it with him taking personal responsibility. Hinge has chosen to oblige and meet that request, rather than decline or renegotiate a timeframe. He's okay leaving it open-ended.

To me, there's a difference between primary and secondary, where one might have more entanglements in one dyad than another. I could see prioritizing that dyad more in pregnancy and infancy, but still practicing separate parallel poly and letting each relationship deal with itself. I could be understanding. It's a demanding phase of life. But it gets outgrown eventually.

And then there is primary-secondary, where the primary relationship dictates what happens in the other dyads. That relationship is intruding on the other ones and saying what goes. I'm not crazy about that.

I assumed that there would be a break.

I'm not sure why you'd assume that, rather than treating each dyad separately.

When the break went on longer than I expected, I said that I was happy to wait. And so I waited.

It sounds like you are tired of "open-ended" and would like an actual timeline.

I have articulated that I can't wait forever, and his response, which I have so much deep empathy for, as a mother myself, is that he doesn't know when his partner will be ready.

While you are not owed sex, Hinge not owning his decision would bug me. He's "passing the buck" on to Primary and not taking personal responsibility for his choice himself.

What to do? I think you get to decide how long you feel like waiting. You get to decide if you like being with Hinge, who doesn't own his choices and "passes the buck" on to Primary, like, "so-and-so made me do it" or "so-and-so says I'm not allowed." If this NEVER changes, you get to decide if being in a sexless relationship with Hinge is worth it, or if you would prefer to move on, rather than stick around some more.

I don't see many other options.

Galagirl

 

[Bobbi]

I’m going out on a limb here and saying what I THINK is going on. Hinge is VERY hierarchical and a rule they have is they cannot do with others what they cannot do themselves. Hinge's Primary just had a baby and she cannot have or is not interested in having sex; therefore, Hinge cannot have sex with any secondaries until Hinge and Primary are having sex again.

A HUGE reason to not get involved in these types of relationships-- if one person can dictate what everyone else is or is not allowed to do in a relationship, you have no autonomy.

If I were in this situation, I would explain to Hinge that it is not okay for his Primary to dictate what kind of relationship you two have. If he isn’t capable of taking ownership of his own body, then he has no business being in a poly relationship, so I’d be out. He needs to choose to be owned by his wife (if so, then be owned monogamously), or to take ownership of his own autonomy and remain polyamorous.

Regardless, some women have a very hard time getting back into their sex life after a baby, and many NEVER DO! Body changes, self-esteem issues, hormone changes, lack of sleep, postpartum depression can last months or years.

Do not accept this any longer. If the 6 weeks that’s medically necessary is past, speak up, and if he can’t decide to continue with your relationship as it was then de-escalate to friends and focus on other relationships. When he’s ready, maybe you’ll have the time for him, or maybe you will have found someone else to focus your time on, who isn’t owned by anyone.

 

[Magdlyn]

In poly, we don't talk about "being allowed" to do things, or not, or needing permission to do things or not. Our primary partner (if we have one) is not our owner or an authority figure, whom we allow to have that kind of hold over us. We are independent adults and we CONSENT to do this or that. We negotiate with our partners. We take their feelings into consideration. We are open to listening to their requests and considering whether we will meet them or not.

Your partner's primary had a baby. Maybe she wants to or can have sex with him at this point, or maybe not. That has no hold on whether he can continue to have sex with YOU, in a polyamorous relationship. Maybe the post-partum woman can't or won't have sex. That is her choice of what to do with her body. But it's not her right to decide what her partner (and your partner) does with HIS body!

Actually, the way nature has designed us, men and women can and do have different feelings about sex after the baby is born. The woman's body has been through the gamut of pregnancy and labor, while the man's body and hormones have remained pretty much the same. Having another lover to take care of his libido until the post-partum partner feels more up for sex could be a handy solution, and in our Stone Age past, it probably was often practiced.

If a man is NOT poly, however, he might be turned off to his wife, and decide to leave her. Or he might not want the responsibility of parenting, and leave her to be a single mom. Those are, obviously, asshole moves. A poly man needs to be a responsible partner to his post-partum partner, a good dad to the new baby, AND a good partner to his other lover(s), as well. He will probably be less available to his other partner, just because the newborn is so needy. But in this case, it sounds like he's "allowed" to spend time with you, but not "allowed" to spend any time having sex to fulfill his own needs, and your needs too. This is unfair. It sounds like he's decided to treat you and his other partner "equally" instead of fairly, and this is unreasonable and impractical.

His primary is probably afraid he will leave her if he has a fulfilling sex life with you while she's involved in the hard work of being a new mother.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello PolyQ,

I am a little confused about why you are not allowed to have sex with your partner, now that he has had a baby with his primary partner. I guess this was going to be a temporary situation, but now it has gone on and on? I guess you can understand this as you have had children of your own? It all sounds very complicated and confusing to me.

I think a breakup may be in order.
Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[PolyQ]

Thank you everyone for your replies - this has been very helpful. I think because I am so sympathetic to what happens after childbirth and I understand the insecurities and challenges that involves I was really struggling to find the language to express my needs without feeling like I was diminishing hers.

 

[GalaGirl]

You having some needs does not diminish her needs.

Childbirth is a lot and can take a while to heal from. Even when given the "all clear" to share sex again, things can still be tender or uncomfortable. BTDT and I'm sympathetic.

But I still don't see why Hinge can't attend to each partner separately and own his choices himself, for example, maybe giving more hugs and cuddles and outercourse, holding off on intercourse with the new mom, and stepping it up on his new parenting obligations.

On your end, this new baby thing might mean a patch of seeing him a bit less, or having more low-key dates, because the baby has him tired and lacking energy for high-energy dates. You might be understanding of that, since you've been there and might recall the exhaustion of newborn days. Maybe you'll have more lunch + errand dates, to get the diapers and whatever for the baby, and fewer hiking-all-day dates.

Apart from safer sex practices being used, it doesn't matter that his sex/dating life with NewMom looks like THAT right now and his sex/dating life with you might look like THIS right now. He makes choices for his body. He attends to each partner separately.

He didn't even have to tell you NewMom made that sort of request of him. I am not sure why he did. I mean, he could choose to oblige her or not; that's up to him, but why bother YOU with those details from that dyad, like a sloppy hinge, leaking stuff from that side of the V over on to this side?

I'd much rather hear, "No, thanks. I can cuddle, but I really don't want to share sex right now," like HE owns his body choices, rather than, "I'm not allowed to share sex, because my other partner says so," like the other partner owns his body choices. It would be off-putting to me.

Galagirl

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I disagree with some other posters. I think it's up to the Hinge if he wants to conduct his relationships in this way and give that much deference to his primary partner. I'd certainly advise everyone else not to date him, but I disagree that poly people aren't meant to do that. Polyamory doesn't mean "Have lots of relationships in a fair and equal way."

I think this idea that he HAS to make his choices separately, etc., is actually as bad as his primary dictating to him. The only difference is that his primary is his wife, and we are strangers on an internet forum. He'd be crazy to put our beliefs before hers.

 

[Magdlyn]

I disagree with some other posters. I think it's up to the Hinge if he wants to conduct his relationships in this way and give that much deference to his primary partner. I'd certainly advise everyone else not to date him, but I disagree that poly people aren't meant to do that. Polyamory doesn't mean "Have lots of relationships in a fair and equal way."

I think this idea that he HAS to make his choices separately, etc., is actually as bad as his primary dictating to him. The only difference is that his primary is his wife, and we are strangers on an internet forum. He'd be crazy to put our beliefs before hers.

No, I certainly disagree. This is something Hinge has to discuss with his Primary. In fact, if they were experienced polyamorists, and had also done research into having a newborn baby, they could have/should have predicted this issue! Of course a newly-delivered mother can't have sex. It might last 4 weeks, it might last months.

(I have a friend [not poly] whose wife had a baby 7 years ago and they've barely had sex since! Something went wrong there. It's an extreme case. She keeps saying, "Someday when the kid is older." And they just have one kid!)

Now, maybe the couple in question did discuss it, and the new mother thought, before the birth, that she'd be okay with her Primary continuing to have sex with his OSO, but something changed or feels different in reality, and she's fearful, envious, jealous, etc. We all know that the fears that cause jealousy in poly, for whatever reason, should be worked through. We shouldn't demand our partner do/not do XYZ, in order to avoid facing our own fears about our partner sharing their body in the way they wish.

I do think a good hinge should seek to treat his partners fairly. But fair does not mean equal, as I said above, and as has been discussed on this board many times. A secondary won't get the exact same treatment as a primary, but they do have rights!

More Than Two | Secondary’s Guide

 

[Bobbi]

I’m sympathetic to the needs of the hinge and if hinge isn’t ready for some reason then more of a conversation needs to happen. My original response is based on hinge saying he couldn’t because primary says so and she doesn’t know how long it will be. That is what I have issue with.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Okay, I just want to say that I'd never date someone under these conditions. I suppose I'm lucky, age-wise, that it's not really a relevant issue for me anymore. My dating pool has definitely crept out of the childbearing age, even the men, who tend to continue on later.

Anyway...

"She doesn’t know how long it will be. That is what I have issue with."

The way I have my relationships, not giving a timeline on something like that would be an issue of the type that would make me walk away. But I don't think the couple in question are obliged to style their relationship in a way that gives a timeline. It's up to them. But people like me will walk away.

We all know that the fears that cause jealousy in poly, for whatever reason, should be worked through. We shouldn't demand our partner do/not do XYZ, in order to avoid facing our own fears about our partner sharing their body in the way they wish.

I don't know that we have to do that to be poly. I'd say it certainly increases one's dating pool in terms of people you could be with long term, but I think you can still be poly and make those demands on your partner, if you so wish.

I suppose I have this line of thinking when I see the Hinge clearly make a choice to appease the Primary. I'm at a place where I can understand the choice to structure your relationships that way, although I choose not to. But this isn't a Hinge unhappy about making his choice and seeking advice. This is a partner unhappy with the Hinge's (clear) choice to limit intimacy in one relationship to ensure his Primary continues to thrive.

 

[Magdlyn]

Okay, I just want to say that I'd never date someone under these conditions. I suppose I'm lucky, age-wise, that it's not really a relevant issue for me anymore. My dating pool has definitely crept out of the childbearing age, even the men, who tend to continue on later.

Anyway...

"She doesn’t know how long it will be. That is what I have issue with."

The way I have my relationships, not giving a timeline on something like that would be an issue of the type that would make me walk away. But I don't think the couple in question are obliged to style their relationship in a way that gives a timeline. It's up to them. But people like me will walk away.

I don't know that we have to do that to be poly. I'd say it certainly increases one's dating pool in terms of people you could be with long term, but I think you can still be poly and make those demands on your partner, if you so wish.

Well, sure. You CAN do anything you want in a poly relationship, just as you CAN do anything you want as a monogamous person, or as a parent, for that matter. You CAN be unethical as a poly person and neglect or mistreat your secondary. You can beat your wife. You can chain your kid to the bed. That is not the point. The point is to do the RIGHT thing here, so that every adult involved (and the baby, of course) are as happy and fulfilled as possible.

If you want to be a successful and ethical poly person, you must act like an adult and take everyone's needs, wants and feelings into consideration. If you don't give a shit and just want to stumble through, by all means, do so, and take the consequences.

This isn't a conversation about how one could act, it's about how to act in the best way, for the best and happiest, healthiest outcome.

I suppose I have this line of thinking when I see the Hinge clearly make a choice to appease the Primary. I'm at a place where I can understand the choice to structure your relationships that way, although I choose not to. But this isn't a Hinge unhappy about making his choice and seeking advice. This is a partner unhappy with the Hinge's (clear) choice to limit intimacy in one relationship to ensure his Primary continues to thrive.

We don't know if Hinge is doing it so Primary can thrive, or if there is some other reason, like he's a doormat, or fearful, or something else. Let's not assume the Primary could not "thrive" even if Hinge had sex or did anything else with the Secondary OP. We do know that the Secondary is perhaps bending herself too much into a pretzel in agreeing to letting the sexless relationship go on for a pretty long time, to the point she's come here asking for feedback and advice. Maybe she needs to learn to advocate for herself.

 

[GalaGirl]

I think it's up to the Hinge if he wants to conduct his relationships in this way and give that much deference to his primary partner.

It is. He could totally oblige NewMom's requests and prioritize her.

If that's the deal? Great. Tell me that is the deal from the start. Don't change the goal posts. And if I agree to participate that way, in a poly V of that type, once is enough. Don't micro-tell me TMI details from the other side of the V for each and every little thing.

If hinge does tell me things, they should own it. Say, "Sorry, I won't be doing that." Don't pass the buck on to the other person, like, "I wish I could, but NewMom won't let me," or "NewMom says I'm not allowed."

But this isn't a Hinge unhappy about making his choice and seeking advice. This is a partner unhappy with the Hinge's (clear) choice to limit intimacy in one relationship to ensure his Primary continues to thrive.

Yup. That's why I think it's on the OP to decide what they feel like doing. Do they want to keep going here, like, "wait and see," or bow out because they're tired of waiting?

GG

 

[Magdlyn]

From the link I posted about the rights of secondaries:

I have the right to be a part of discussions about decisions that affect me, wherever possible and practical. It is unfair to be told about changes in the form and rules of my relationships after the fact. While it is not reasonable for me to expect full decision-making partnership in all aspects of the primary relationship—for example, I may not have decision-making power in whether or not the primary partners decide to move away for a better job—I do expect to be part of any negotiations that directly impact the form my relationship takes.

I have the right to ask my partners to compromise and seek to reach a middle ground when possible. I should not always be the one and only one to make changes and do all of the bending.

I have the right to be treated as an equal individual (which is different than being an equal partner). I deserve to have my partner spend time in my world as well as visiting his/hers/theirs. My likes, dislikes, desires, hangups should not be dismissed simply because I am secondary.

I have the right to have and express all of my emotions. I knowingly and willingly accept that being secondary may place limits on many things (e.g., sharing family holidays or vacations with my partner, having my partner with me in a time of crisis or celebration). My acceptance of that possibility does not mean that I won’t be disappointed or even sad during such times. Further, being secondary comes with some built-in challenges to security (especially in the beginning) and there may be times I need reassurance as to how and where I fit into my partner’s world. I promise to do my best to keep things in perspective and to avoid guilt, drama, temper tantrums, and pouting, but I ask that my partner and his or her partners accept reasonable expressions of doubt, disappointment, etc., on my part.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

If you want to be a successful and ethical poly person, you must act like an adult and take everyone's needs, wants and feelings into consideration.

You see, this is where we disagree. I think it is possible to meet someone kind of like my partner, Jules. She'd be perfectly happy with this and just... waiting, unless she grew tired, which she wouldn't do with an established partner. Not having sex for this reason with a partner wouldn't bother her much because, while she needs sex, she doesn't need sex from all of her partners, all of the time. And she doesn't care why they don't want to have sex.

She wouldn't feel the same as we would about it, so it's not inconsiderate or unethical to treat her this way.

I think it's a matter of compatibility. The couple needs to find people like Jules who can work with these ebbs and flows, without negative feelings.

for the best and happiest, healthiest outcome.

I don't necessarily think a style that would lead to the happiest outcome for OP, would match the happiest outcome for the wife. For that reason, it wouldn't be the happiest outcome for the wife. So again, I think this is a case of the couple accepting they do poly this way and that there are fewer people who can be content with it. I don't think it's a case of them doing poly the wrong way. Its their way.

Let's not assume the Primary could not "thrive" even if Hinge had sex or did anything else with the Secondary OP.

I think people know themselves well enough to know when they could cope vs when they could thrive. I think the decision to take sex off of the table is the couple acknowledging the wife cannot thrive while sex is still on the table between OP and Hinge.

Maybe she needs to learn to advocate for herself.

Sure, she should find a more compatible partner.

Like "I wish I could, but NewMom won't let me," or, "NewMom says I'm not allowed."

I think we have had this talk before on here. I think sometimes you have to communicate that truth.

 

[GalaGirl]

I think we have had this talk before on here. I think sometimes you have to communicate that truth.

Yes. I agree it needs to be communicated.

I'd prefer something else, but if I was going there, communicating that once would be enough. Relationships don't have to be "equal" or "the same," but people in the relationships have to know and agree on what the model IS.

A hinge who has to keep telling a secondary this, because the secondary says they agree with it/accept it, but really don't, would become a drag on the hinge.

A secondary who has to keep hearing mixed messages, because the hinge says they agree and want one way, but then acts like they want something else, but it's the other partner blocking them, would become a drag too.

GG

 

[Magdlyn]

You see, this is where we disagree. I think it is possible to meet someone kind of like my partner, Jules. She'd be perfectly happy with this and just... waiting, unless she grew tired, which she wouldn't do with an established partner. Not having sex for this reason with a partner wouldn't bother her much because, while she needs sex, she doesn't need sex from all of her partners, all of the time. And she doesn't care why they don't want to have sex.

She wouldn't feel the same as we would about it, so it's not inconsiderate or unethical to treat her this way.

I think it's a matter of compatibility. The couple needs to find people like Jules who can work with these ebbs and flows, without negative feelings.

Haha, I don't think this couple NEEDS to find another partner for the husband right now. It seems like either Husband breaks up with the OP, or he tells her there is no sex at all, for the foreseeable future, take it or leave it, and OP agrees (in a Jules-like fashion). Then, OP goes ahead and accepts the breakup, or agrees to the no sex for X amount of time, doesn't break up, but goes and finds another partner who can actually have sex.

Without more information from the OP, about whether this is a "her problem," (avoiding dealing with the situation and just going along passively and resenting the missing sex), or a "him problem," (bf going along with wife's demand he stops having sex with OP until she damn well tells him he is "allowed" to), we really can't give proper feedback and advice.

Either way, we can guess that the newly-delivered wife would rather hubby keeps to home, takes care of her and baby, and if he's gonna have sex at all, have it with her. It could be she's decided she doesn't want to do polyamory at all until the baby's needs become less urgent.

If I were the OP, I'd ask about this. I once broke up with a very nice man, against his wishes, because his wife was pregnant (and they had several other kids/stepkids between them), and *I* wanted him to prioritize his family. The problem wasn't sex, it was that he wanted to keep seeing me, but was so busy and distracted with the family, he kept being late for dates, or breaking them.

I don't necessarily think a style that would lead to the happiest outcome for OP, would match the happiest outcome for the wife. For that reason, it wouldn't be the happiest outcome for the wife. So again, I think this is a case of the couple accepting they do poly this way and that there are fewer people who can be content with it. I don't think it's a case of them doing poly the wrong way. It's their way.

Again, we don't know if this couple really don't want him to have sex with OP for an undetermined period of time, or if it would be fine, if OP would just pull up her big girl panties and ask.

I think people know themselves well enough to know when they could cope vs when they could thrive. I think the decision to take sex off of the table is the couple acknowledging the wife cannot thrive while sex is still on the table between OP and Hinge.

Who knows?

Sure, she should find a more compatible partner.

She certainly could, once she asks the important questions and gets a clear answer and it's not an answer she likes. Living in a grey zone indefinitely is not acceptable to our OP (even tho it may be to a person like Jules, who has other partners to have sex with).

 

[PolyQ]

Lots of interesting ideas here!

One point of disagreement seems to be about whether or not it's ok for Hinge to communicate his decision (not to have sex), and also the reason for it (at Primary's request), or whether it should be communicated to me (Secondary) as his decision alone. Personally, I don't have a problem with the former, and in fact prefer it. Primary is a real living person who has feelings and needs, and because I have a relationship with Hinge those needs impact my life. To imagine everything that sits behind Hinge's decision as a black box into which I can't see and don't want to hear about is not helpful to me, although I fully understand that some poly people prefer it that way. That said, I fully agree that whatever the reason is behind it, Hinge needs to take responsibility for his decision, and some of the language he uses ("not allowed") is not ideal, and can make framing the conversation more challenging.

Another question seems to be around whether I'm in this position because I'm failing to articulate my needs. As I mentioned above, I have found this challenging. Communicating authentically about our needs is a core, if not the core, poly skill. I would say that I'm on a continuing journey to get better at it, and I don't think I'm alone in that, here in this community or anywhere.

What I have communicated is essentially:
1) At the start-- I understand Hinge won't be available to me physically or emotionally for a while after the birth and I am completely fine with that
2) In the middle-- this is going on longer than I expected; I have checked in with myself and I am still fine with this; I understand what is being asked of me (to keep waiting); and I agree to it
3) Recently-- the waiting is taking an emotional toll on me and I can't continue this indefinitely; I would like to know when it's going to end.

In response to 3) Hinge has said: "I hear that. I understand. I'm sorry, I can't tell you when this is going to end because it's out of my control.

As a secondary, I have what I hope is a very healthy instinct against reaching into their relationship and/or telling them that they are 'doing poly wrong'. There are as many ways of doing poly as there are poly people, multiplied by all the other poly people. I am also, obviously, not in any way, directly or indirectly, going to tell Primary that she should be ready by now, or should be soon, or should know when she will be ready. If I were in a direct sexual relationship with her, then I wouldn't have that option, and I don't consider that I have it now. Being a grown-up in a grown-up relationship means we don't always get to have what we want right away, and I'm far from the first person in history to have my sex life negatively impacted by a baby.

Obviously, I understand that I have the option of walking away. I understand that many people on this forum would choose that now, or indeed may have chosen it way back at 1), and I respect that.

My question for this group is: drawing on the language and skillset of people experienced in working with poly dynamics generally, and hierarchical poly specifically, what other options do I have?

 

[Evie]

Take another lover?

 

[Bobbi]

I can't tell you when this is going to end, because it's out of my control.

This is the thing I’d have a problem with: him saying his choice is out of his control. He needs to accept that it is his choice and he has chosen not to have a sexual relationship with you until further notice, perhaps indefinitely.

Ask yourself this: Do my feelings stay the same for each statement?
1. I'm not allowed to have sex with you until my wife says it’s okay.
2. I won’t be having a sexual relationship with you until further notice. It could be indefinitely.

What other options do I have?

You can de-escalate the relationship. Take sex off the table completely, so you aren’t waiting to restart your relationship. Remove sex and make it more friendship/intellectual-based vs romantic. (Although you can have a sexless romantic relationship, it will be hard to have that and not want sex.)

In your mind, it is a very different place to not be able to have sex in a sexual relationship, than to not have sex in a relationship that is non-sexual. It seems like semantics, but when you end the sexual relationship it just gets easier to not have sex.

This will also free your mind a bit to maybe enjoy a sexual relationship with someone else, while still enjoying a very close relationship with this partner.

This allows you to have the relationship you have right now, without expectation that it will change in the near future. And it won’t matter if it never does. If he wants to renegotiate that in the future, you are open to it, but don’t have expectations of it.