primary status rejected

[dingedheart]

Hi folks. I had a interesting discussion last night with my wife. I think she was trying to be supportive by saying I was her primary, and blah blah. At which point I said, "What if I don't want to be the primary?" I think she said, "I want you as my primary." I said, "In poly, isn't everything negotiable? Why is this any different?"

I then asked, "Who do you think about when you have mental free time? How much time do you spend texting or checking in on the phone with him?" The answer I got was some question to me, and some avoidance bs. I then said, "If you are spending your free mental time thinking of this guy, then he's already the number-one thing on your mind. He may as well have the title to go along with it. Conversely, I'll gladly switch places, or be something even less, if that meant being the focus of your thoughts and attention, or better yet, just your thoughts."

Things got a little more heated after that. This idea seemed to really bother her. I was thinking, "Okay, what's my up side? I/we get less time, attention, focus. I get to be her emotional tampon when things get rough, in all things, not just this relationship stuff, but her job, friends, etc."

I almost forgot the financial piece. Here's a woman who makes over 80 grand a year, who never has a buck. Her money is her money, and my money is our money. When I think of all the money I have spent/invested in this, I could have bought a small island somewhere (a topic for another time).

All for what? What's my up side, again?

I said, "I'm not sure I want the responsibility of primary," and I would let her know. Maybe tertiary, but that might not work. Seeing there is only two, I get that status by default. Hey, lucky me.

I wonder if she'll be thinking of this conversation the next time she picks up her Blackberry. What I am saying is, she most likely emailed an entire transcript to him 3 minutes after it ended last night.

Got go have a lunch meeting.

Look forward to hearing the replies,
D

 

[SNeacail]

All I can say is, that was an interesting approach. I can't imagine her not thinking about that conversation for a while yet. Very interested to see how she responds to this.

I have never understood "What's mine is mine, and what's his is ours." Living expenses, as well as household chores, should be shared. I'm not saying 50/50, but proportional, based on income, ability, etc. Maybe renegotiating that could help you start finding a balance, where you don't feel like you are being taken advantage of.

 

[Fidelia]

BrotherMan,

You and your wife have some serious issues the two of you need to address, so that you get your marriage on the right track. Among them are basic fairness, trust, honesty and communication, going strictly on what you have written on this forum. A counselor or therapist might be really useful to y'all to help you sort through things and acquire the tools you need to work through it and get your relationship back on track.

Adding the complications of polyamory to an unhealthy relationship never solves the underlying problems.

 

[redpepper]

Was that a vent you just had? I am kind of waiting to see what you think about the conversation you had.

You basically told her that you are not wanting to be the sole supporter of her emotions and actions in her relationships. That is fine, but that means she will go elsewhere. Are you okay with that?

Just because she texts and talks to others more does not indicate a hierarchy. You two, as a couple, decide on that. I suggest you move out of it, frankly, as hierarchies are useful to a point, and then they just become disrespectful to the people involved. Everyone is worth being on even ground, I think.

It sounds like you are thinking that she doesn't consider you in the position you hold in her life. So tell her that. Tell her what position you want to have, including details about your needs and boundaries.

It sounds like this needs renegotiating and refocusing on. That is not something to be sarcastic about all the time, just while venting, maybe. If, in fact, it was sarcasstic venting you were doing in your post, eventually sarcasm leads to passive aggressiveness, in my experience, rather than being assertive about what you need. I say assertive rather than aggressive. Assertion comes with a heavy dose of respect and consideration of words, and compassion for the listener's position. Aggression comes with an attempt to bring the listener down in some way. If you want respect, you have to give it.

As to the money issue, I don't think its fair to bring that up when you are pissed off. If you don't like it, change it. It's not open season on everything you hate about your life with her when you have a fight, I don't think. If you realize there is something you would like to change when you are in the midst of a fight, then put it aside and work on it later. It sounds like you have an imbalance of finances going on, and you don't understand why. So that's something to deal with separately. If you don't, and things carry on, and you know that you don't like the situation, then it's on your head, not hers, I think. If you don't address issues that are concerns of yours, and not hers, then that is your issue, not hers. It's not fair or relevant to other arguments to bring that up.

Stick to the topic at hand. Work at one thing at a time. Blowing up over everything at once is bordering on verbal abuse, for some people. Not to say that you are, but to let oneself go in that way can be extremely destructive, rather than instructive.

Again, perhaps you were venting to us, which is completely valid and welcome. I do that with people too, with a reminder that I just need to vent in order to gain some composure to be able to handle the situation. Often it becomes clear where to head afterwards, and I appreciate the listening ear.

I used to blow up and throw words, situations, damaged relationships and chances at people, working towards something better. It isn't worth it, in the end. I hurt people I love. Now I make every attempt to get a grip on my feelings first. It might take some therapy or a course in communication to learn how to do that. There is a thread on that here in the stickies. I also suggest looking into non-violent or compassionate communication techniques. They have changed my communication life tenfold.

 

[SNeacail]

@RP, ouch! You're absolutely right. What you said hit real close to home for me. Again, ouch!

Off to find some more books to read.

 

[ray]

I can't claim to know how you feel, since I'm in a very different place in life, unmarried, college student, female, etc.

I would take heart in knowing that she is likely experiencing NRE right now, which is why she thinks about him and texts him a lot. It sounds like you've been married a long time. It doesn't mean that she loves you less, or that she sees him as primary. The NRE will pass. It may be obnoxious, even hurtful, but it won't last forever.

I hope that she and her SO are respectful of your needs while they enjoy their NRE.

I doubt there's much I can say to make anything better, but I do wish you the best in figuring out what you need to be happy.

 

[dingedheart]

Hi again.

To clarify, it wasn't a fight. It actually started out as a quiet discussion, with my wife trying to get me to understand her version of "primary." That's when I got myself in trouble, by saying or asking I shouldn't be the "primary." Her words, not mine. She seemed very hurt that I could have such a thought.

When I said heated, I meant she became emotional, not me. She had tears. Anything with quotes around it was close to my words as I can remember.

The "What's my up side?" part was a rant to all of you.

I never said anything about money, or her contributions. As for the money thing rant, I really don't give a shit. That's just sour grapes, looking back. If I didn't have kids, I might bitch about the time I wasted. "I want those years back," and the like. Stupid, I know. I wasted and lost more money than the pocket change I was referring to, anyway.

The idea of a hierarchy seems inherent with the use of the word/status of primary. I see a change happening already. I don't think she gets that her behavior during her NRE might kill things for me. There may be nothing to go back to after her NRE wears off.

Again, I was told nothing was going to change. It was just something she needed to explore. In the beginning, she said she had no problem with me having an outside relationship.

About a month ago, I stopped wearing my wedding band. Wow, another thing she didn't like. Kind of blown away by her reaction. She's free to date, fuck, whatever, but I can't stop wearing a ring?

So none of you have tried to remove yourselves as the "primary"? I'm sure it's a question that's never been asked. I get that a lot.

Thanks,
D

 

[SNeacail]

I was told nothing was going to change. It was just something she needed to explore.

To say nothing is going to change, when you are changing the entire dynamic of your relationship, is naive at best. To believe it was also naive and unrealistic. Anything we do has the potential to severely impact our day-to-day lives. Changing medication changes things, changing jobs changes us, etc. We need to learn to watch for what is changing, address the problems that inevitably arise, and work toward a solution that is livable.

As far as the money thing is concerned, obviously there is some resentment there. What worked great three years ago might not be what works now. It's not unreasonable to negotiate new systems to run your household.

 

[redpepper]

I became an "unprimary" when my wife and I were practicing polyamory. PN became primary after a time. Really, now, I wouldn't have defined it as such. She is just as important to me as she ever was. Our marriage ended, but my love for her didn't change. Her involvement in my life changed. But when I think of her now, thousands of miles away, having not talked to her since Christmas, I feel the same as I did 15 years ago, perhaps even more love, the kind that of love that grows with time and experiences together.

I don't have primaries in the sense of hierarchy. Mono is not financially bonded to me, or bonded to me in terms of having a child together. But he is just as important as PN.

With time and in experience, the loves in my life become more and more primary. The time I spend with them is not indicative of status either, after a time. There is old love, and new love, and differences in personality. That's it.

 

[dingedheart]

To say nothing is going to change, when you are changing the entire dynamic of your relationship is naive at best. To believe it was also naive and unrealistic.

What I meant by "nothing was going to change" was, in our early discussions on this topic, she'd say, "My love for you won't diminish, but grow, more love and happiness for all"-- things of that nature, words we have all read on here and other sites many many times. In theory, that's great, and in a lot of cases, workable. The rub comes in practice. We have all read posts now in which a partner feels like the time, dates, even sex, are given out of fairness and/or obligation. I've don't think I have read any responses to partners detailing why it was happening, or what they planned to do about it.

When I said in one of my early posts I came to this poly situation reluctantly, it's the same way I viewed cocaine in the 1980s: don't even try it once, because I'll most likely get hooked. I was an adrenaline junkie at that time, and used/abused alcohol. Thankfully I put most of that behind me. Way too many mornings waking up feeling like death. I wish I could get that time back, as well.

The concept of poly was not much different <in my head> from what I did in college, and for about year afterwards. I dated several women at once, some on the same day, very similar to stories here. However, I never had more than three. More likely it was two, with the third being a transition back to two.

My mindset was to have fun, never marriage, or anything like that. The problem was the women wanting more of a commitment. Generally that's when things got sticky. Time to move on, so to speak.

Knowing myself the way I think I do when it comes to matters of the heart, I don't think I could make assurances or statements like the ones my wife has made. Sure, I could say, "I'll always love you," but I think we all know that could have three dozen meanings. When I felt the disconnect happening, she would say. "But I love you." To my reply, "Like what? Brother, roommate, cousin?" I never got a great response back, or one that I remember. I hope that helps explain a little.

 

[dingedheart]

I became an unprimary when my wife and I were poly. PN became primary after a time. Now I wouldn't define it as such. She is just as important as she ever was. Our marriage ended, but my love for her didn't change. I feel the same as I did 15 years ago, perhaps even more love. The kind that of love that grows with time and experiences together.

I don't have primaries, in the sense of hierarchy. Mono is not financially bonded to me or bonded to me in terms of a having a child together, but he is just as important as PN. With time and in experience, the loves in my life become more and more primary.

Thanks, RP.

I guess, in theory, hierarchy doesn't have to exist. But again, I put almost 20 yrs in, and to think some fling of 6-7 months as equal is hard to get my head around.

When you speak of your ex-wife and your love, I think that's how a lot people feel about ex-spouses or ex-partners. However, it would be hard not to give someone in a current relationship somewhat different status. You stated how you see your relationships, and their status, or their equality. How would they describe the same situation? Is this an area in which each person may have their own take on it?

You mentioned your ex-wife, PN, Mono. How do you describe the others?

How did you become "un-primary"? Did you ask for such a change, or was is the nature of a relationship in decline, or one of you finding someone new?

Thanks,
D

 

[redpepper]

In theory, hierarchy doesn't have to exist. I put almost 20yrs in and to think some fling of 6-7 months is equal is hard to get my head around. When you speak of your ex-wife, that's how a lot people feel about ex-spouses or ex-partners. However, it would be hard not to give someone in a current relationship somewhat different status. You stated how you see your relationships and their status. How would they describe the situation? Is this an area in which each person may have their own take on it? You mentioned your ex-wife, PN, Mono. how do you describe the others? How did you become un-primary? Did you ask for such a change or was is the nature of a relationship in decline, or one of you finding someone new?

Sure, dingedheart. I didn't ask for anything. We didn't work on anything in particular. It just happened. One day I had a change of heart. I had invested a lot of time and energy into the people I loved, and could not hold onto their titles anymore. Remember, I have been polyamorous for 15 years. I have experienced a lot with my loves.

Mono came into my life two years ago. It took time and adjustment. We just let that happen in its own time. He doesn't agree that he is not anything but a secondary. But he doesn't agree with a lot that I say and do.

Derby is the recent addition to my life. We said right from the beginning that we would just see where it went. She is not part of my life as much, time-wise, but she holds a place of huge importance to me. I am invested in her well-being, as well as the well-being of her family.

History and involvement in people's lives create investment and connection. That is what I go by.

This man that your wife is with, in time, perhaps you will feel the same, if you decide to make an attempt to create history with him and her, that is.

Your investment of 20 years is valid and worth respecting, but I would suggest that, at some point, you start looking towards the future.

 

[dingedheart]

I had invested a lot of time and energy into the people I love and could not hold on to their title anymore. Remember I have been poly for 15 years. A lot of time has passed and I have experienced a lot with my loves. Mono came into my life two years ago. It took time and adjustment. We just let that happen in its own time. He doesn't agree that he is not anything but a secondary. He doesn't agree with a lot that I say and do. Derby is the recent addition to my life. We said right from the beginning that we would just see where it went. She is not part of my life as much, time-wise, but she holds a place of huge importance to me now. I am invested in her well-being. History and involvement in peoples lives creates investment and connection. That is what I go by. This man that your wife is with. in time, perhaps you will feel the same if you decide to make an attempt to create history with him and her that is... your investment of 20 yrs is valid and worth respecting, but I would suggest that at some point you start looking towards the future.

Thanks, RP. I am looking towards the future, which is why I was trying to redefine how my new role could work. As you said, if I move into a more secondary role, things could become more distant, or something like that. I believe you were suggesting further change. IMO, that process has begun. Now I have a say in where it goes, or rather, the depth. There could be a nice freedom with this new role.

You said Mono sees his role as secondary. That may have more benefits for him than the being a "primary," if only in his head, which I guess is the case, by your description.

As for creating history, 7 months seems like a grain of sand to me. I know my wife's history and patterns.

I looked up ogle. I think you were using the old definition.

Ogle: a loving appreciation for the clad or unclad female form.

(My preference is unclad.) The old definition had to do with creepy naked-nipple leering. It's all an outgrowth of the sex-positive movement, which is nice. <kidding> This is my definition, although I am going to look it up.

 

[SNeacail]

I looked up ogle. I think you were use the old definition. Ogle: a loving appreciation for the clad or unclad female form. The old definition had to do with creepy naked-nipple leering. This is my definition, although I am going to look it up.

NO, NO, NO! Please, no more debates on old definitions vs new definitions, #1 vs #5, noun vs verb. It's the English language, and most words have multiple meanings. Please let it go.

 

[dingedheart]

I wanted to reply to SNeacail from that other thread by Honestheart sooner. Sorry it got lost in the shuffle.

Your question was: is she doing things out of keeping things even? YES. Is it my impression? NO. Can this spiral out of control? YES, very easily. Is there an easy way to fix the problem? NO. Everyone starts second- and third-guessing everything, words, gestures, tone, etc.

Your other question had do with spur-of-the-moment things. Well, I'm not sure how she feels today, but lots of things have changed over the years. I've done spontaneous things all my life.

While living/working in Germany, I met this great girl at party on a Tuesday evening, and asked if she had plans for the weekend. She said it was her birthday and she was going out with her roommates. A second later, I said, "I think we should go to Switzerland, skiing, for your birthday. My treat." I just thought it was a really fun idea for three-day weekend. It was great, up to the skiing part. She couldn't ski that good. Nightmare. I hope she remembers it as exciting and fun.

When I was dating my wife, I did similar things, like call her at 10am saying, "I feel like going to New Orleans today. Go home and get your stuff. I'll pick you up such and such time, and off to the airport." Rarely did she say she couldn't.

When we first started dating, I had gone to race-car driving school and was, on weekends in the summer, driving Formula Fords with Skip Barber. I had a BMW M5 back then, a great performance car. She loved riding and going fast in that car. Today we have another performance car, but she can't stand the way I drive it. It's more or less her primary car, unless the weather is bad. Then she takes something else. But I no longer drive it with her in the car. It's too stressful for her. I don't like the arguments that generally result. I did ask, because I remember her enjoyment, or at least I thought I did. Answer, "I changed. I don't like it now."

Interesting event 2+ weeks ago-- we had a family ski trip planned. The day before, she started saying she didn't think she was going to go. I knew what was going on, but really couldn't and didn't want to make a big deal out of it. I just shook my head and walked out. Not exactly sure what she told the kids, but offer for them to bring their friends, no problem. We all would stay at our vacation home, so no big deal.

Late Saturday afternoon, I was skiing and had a very nice crash. I had to go to an ER. I felt banged up, but they insisted on the ER. I gave the older kids all my cash and instructions. I had a phone and they had phones.

Daughter called, panicking. "I can't get ahold of Mom! I've called 10 times and left messages over the past hr, etc." I told her not to panic. There was nothing Mom could do from there, anyway. "Stop calling her and go have fun."

20 minutes later, my wife called. "I heard you wiped out. Are you okay?" I told her my prelim status. At that point, it was unclear if I was going to be held overnight. We live about 2 hrs away, so I thought the smart play would be for her to come up to take care of the kids. That's when I found out she was in Vegas. I think I just hung up on her. So I guess the answer is yes, she can be spontaneous, with the right person.

I had 2 broken ribs, a sprained left knee and a bruised kidney. Bad day.

The fallout of this event is going to be felt for a very long time, and I'm not talking about my ribs or knee. They're already getting better.

 

[SNeacail]

Now I did ask, because I remember her enjoyment, or at least I thought I did. Answer, I changed, don't like it now.

I went through this. I don't know if it was age, having kids or something else. I used to love to go off-roading with my husband, but now I can't stand it. When I was younger, it was thrilling. Now such activities really make me anxious and it isn't enjoyable at all. Now the only place I have a "need for speed" is on the ski slopes, and even that will change, depending on my fitness level and my sense of control.

Based on some of your other posts, I can only suggest you may need help from a professional. There does seem to be other issues here, with your wife constantly searching for something new and better.

Now, did the trip to Vegas come up only the day before they ski trip, or did it just take her that long to bring up the fact that she was changing her plans? I don't blame you for being upset with her. It was a rotten thing to do.

I have 2 broken ribs, sprained knee, bruised kidney.

Ouch! I hope you heal up fast. This is why I always wear a helmet when skiing now.

 

[dingedheart]

SNeacail, while lying in the exam room, I really felt quite alone, and decided to make some small changes that might make a large symbolic statement. Listening to the stories of the doctors and other staff made me feel lucky and reflective of what could have happened. What if I killed myself and other what-ifs, for a good 20 min.

Here's where the professional help comes in. I changed my very large life insurance policies, which were put in place because of my business and its exposure, into my kids' names. I have taken out an additional policy on myself, with my wife as beneficiary, for $50 grand, more than enough. (The average funeral is about $8000.) I think it's only fair I be removed from her policy, if I already haven't.

But I think you meant professional help in another sense, right?

As for the question of the Vegas trip, I don't know. I didn't ask. I found out in the ER after asking her to get rolling up here, because of the time and distance it would take. If we waited for all the tests and results, and then made a decision, we would have to worry about the hill closing and how the kids would get back to our cabin, etc. The oldest kid is only 13.

The phone conversation was more short than hostile. I said, "That's not going to work. Don't talk to the kid. I'll call you back." Then I hung up. Second thought, I think my first word was, "What?" then the other stuff.

Before the trip, when she hinted that she might not go, it was to see if anyone would put up resistance. So she offered the kids to take friends. My take is if the kids would have put up a fuss, she would have gone. But I've been wrong before.

I'm not sure how I feel, if it was rotten or not. At the time, I felt bad for the kids, I guess, knowing that she was making a choice to not be part of our family outing. I'm talking pre-trip. And knowing the kids very soon won't want to go as a family. I just thought we needed to capitalize on these years.

To be fair, we went skiing as a family over the Christmas break, and the kids really didn't say anything about missing Mom until my trip to the ER. I most likely let them get away with a lot more anyway, so no one suffered. If I had know about the Vegas trip in advance, I just would have done pretty much the same thing. Thinking back, I never called her, or even thought to.

She called every 10 mins or so for the next half hour, none of which I picked up, because I was on making arrangements for our extraction. When I did finally answer her calls, I told her to stay lost for several more hours and think up what she was going to tell everyone. "It better be good. Let me know the story."

The fallout is coming from many sources for my wife. I called a good friend/neighbor, who is also a doctor, to rescue my battered ass. The good thing for me was he could talk with ER staff and then tell me how they think, as an institution. Boil it down to medical facts, not legal exposure.

The bad thing was all his questions. "Where's the wife?" His wife is my wife's good friend. More questions from another person. They went to my house, rang the bell and pounded on the door. The parents of the other kids got involved-- two of my daughters friends' parents, and one of my sons' friend's parents.

She has stated she is going through a selfish phase. I asked when she thought it started, and when did she predict it would be over? She mentioned this is not much different than a few years ago, when I spent nights and weekends on all the different projects I had running all at once. Fair, from a time standpoint. But this is not work versus play argument. This is family play vs. personal play.

Wife's background: each of her parents were married 3+ times. Her mom had additional relationships, as well. It is my opinion that my wife is trying desperately to fill in some sort of love hole that most likely can't be filled externally. She has told me repeatedly over the years how I could never understand. Maybe she seeks understanding.

Maybe "love hole" was the wrong phrasing for all you perverts. It really hurts when I laugh. But you get the idea.

Mono made the comment that moving from a primary role to a secondary status may devalue the relationship. I think it's more of a redistribution of value or equity.

Last point... Some people can't learn without loss. They don't know what they've got til it's gone. They don't know they've gone too far til they've gone way way too far.

Sorry for the length,
D

 

[MonoVCPHG]

Mono made the comment that moving from a primary role to a secondary status may devalue the relationship. I think it's more of a redistribution of value.

Some people can't learn without loss. They don't know what they've got til it's gone. They don't know they've gone too far til they've gone way too far.

This is one sad story, my friend. I know this is only one side, but it isn't very positive. Your wife can't seem to see beyond her own wants.

I think you are wise to be redistributing your value, both within your mind, and in personal affairs. There's too much selfishness in this. You need to protect yourself emotionally and legally, I think.

I hope it all works out, my friend. Take care and heal fast.

 

[SNeacail]

Your wife can't seem to see beyond her own wants.

I think you are wise to be redistributing your value both within your mind and in personal affairs. There's too much selfishness in this and you need to protect yourself, emotionally and legally.

I agree with Mono. You may even want to appoint someone other than your wife to be custodian of your kids money until they are 18 or 21. (Courts will automatically appoint the mother if nothing else is specified.) Of course, this can be changed later if things start getting better.

As for professional help, yes, I did mean therapy (and not for your broken bones).

 

[River]

.... It is my opinion that my wife is trying desperately to fill in some sort of love hole that most likely can't be filled externally.

DH, I have much catching up to do on this story, which Mono brought to my attention in his post, but this part moved into center stage while I was reading. That's an empowering, important insight, for both of you. For you, especially. Hold it close.

I'll try to catch up on your story as time allows. Peace!