Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc.: Merged Threads, General Discussion

Psychology Today also has a short article about the difference between jealousy and envy:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199401/devastating-difference


A Devastating Difference

Jealousy exposes fear of loss; envy hinges on feeling inferior.
By Hara Estroff Marano, published on January 01, 1994 - last reviewed on July 16, 2009


Envy vs. Jealousy

Long lumped together by ordinary folks and scholars alike, envy and jealousy are not a single, formless "super emotion." On the contrary, they are distinct, with different components, and are in fact elicited by completely different situations and in completely different settings.

According to Georgetown University psychologist W. Gerrod Parrott, Ph.D., envy occurs when a person lacks another person's superior quality, achievement, or possession, and desires it—or wishes that the other person lacked it.

Jealousy, by contrast, occurs in the context of a close relationship when a person fears losing an important other to a rival—in particular, losing a relationship that is important to one's sense of self.

For all their distinctiveness, envy and jealousy sometimes occur together, Parrott reports in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (Vol. 64, No. 4). For instance, when a romantic partner gives attention to an attractive rival, a person may feel both jealous of that attention and envious of the rival for being so attractive. And since jealousy involves the loss of a personal relationship, it's usually more intense than envy.

Here's how envy and jealousy stack up:

ENVY

  • Feelings of inferiority
  • Longing
  • Resentment of circumstances
  • Ill will towards envied person often accompanied by guilt about these feelings
  • Motivation to improve
  • Desire to possess the attractive rival's qualities
  • Disapproval of feelings
JEALOUSY
  • Fear of loss
  • Suspicion or anger about betrayal
  • Low self-esteem and sadness over loss
  • Uncertainty and loneliness
  • Fear of losing an important person to an attractive other
  • Distrust
 
Another article, about envy, from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosphy has a small section explaining the difference between jealousy and envy:

D'Arms, Justin, "Envy", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2009 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), ​

Envy vs. Jealousy

Ordinary language tends to conflate envy and jealousy. The philosophical consensus is that these are distinct emotions. While it is linguistically acceptable to say that one is jealous upon hearing about another's vacation, say, it has been plausibly argued that one is feeling envy, if either, in such a case. Both envy and jealousy are three-place relations; but this superficial similarity conceals an important difference. Jealousy involves three parties, the subject, the rival, and the beloved; and the jealous person's real locus of concern is the beloved—the person whose affection he is losing or fears losing—not his rival. Whereas envy is a two party relation, with a third relatum that is a good (albeit a good that could be a particular person's affections); and the envious person's locus of concern is the rival. Hence, even if the good that the rival has is the affection of another person, there is a difference between envy and jealousy. Roughly, for the jealous person the rival is fungible and the beloved is not fungible. So he would be equally bothered if the beloved were consorting with someone else, and would not be bothered if the rival were. Whereas in envy it is the other way around. Because envy is centrally focused on competition with the rival, the subject might well be equally bothered if the rival were consorting with a different (appealing) person, but would not be bothered if the ‘good’ had gone to someone else (with whom the subject was not in competition). Whatever the ordinary meaning of the terms ‘envy’ and ‘jealousy,’ these considerations demonstrate that these two distinct syndromes need to be distinguished.
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Note: I had to look up the definition of fungible
fun·gi·ble ˈfʌndʒəbəl [fuhn-juh-buhl] –adjective (Law). (esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind.
 
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And for further edification... :)

I found a short article about the difference between jealousy and envy at a site called differencebetween.net (interesting site, btw):

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-jealousy-and-envy/

Difference Between Jealousy and Envy
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These two words are very similar and are listed as synonyms. Their time of derivation is close as well. Jealously has an origin of between 1175 and 1225. Envy has an origin stated to be between 1250–1300. Both are cited as being most recently derived from Middle English. The fact that envy seems to have originated after jealousy it seems to imply that it is the result of an attempt to further clarify or distinguish concepts. The differences between these two are subtle, which is true with nearly any synonyms. It does exist though in the overall usage and many of the specific definitions. There are a number of definitions, though, that overlap. To begin, let it be pointed out that envy is used as a noun and a verb, while jealousy is only used as a noun and is a state of being that references the adjective jealous.

Jealousy is a state of being that is rather focused in what it refers to. In general, the common uses refer to states of unease. In some definitions these are elevated to resentment and suspicion. It can refer to a general state or specifically a state of mind. Jealousy in some instances may refer to simply a vigilance or commitment to maintaining or guarding a thing.

While jealousy often refers to a rival, envy is often focused toward the possessions and advantages of another. It may also include the idea of right. In general, this is based on the individual being more deserving of the objects that the envy is focused on. For example, the individual that is envious may consider themselves to be more deserving of the possessions of another. The verb form of envy can refer to an instance when an individual feels that way toward an object.

The most obvious difference of the two is that jealousy is generally focused toward an individual, and specifically toward an individual that may be considered a rival. Envy instead focuses more on the object than the person that possesses it, though the envy may be based or accompanied by the assessment that the individual deserves what they envy.
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Hey Autumnal,

Some thoughts for and against.....

AutumnalTone said:
Envy is wanting what somebody else has. It may or may not be driven by feelings of inadequacy or insecurity. Indeed, one can feel envy without ever feeling inadequate or insecure.
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True. I agree, except in the context of what we are talking about. The envy you speak of that is low level (envy over physical things) seldom cause the type of problems and drama that inadequacy does in relationships. Context is important. We're dealing with relationships here, and the competitive factor that so many people can't seem to step aside from.

AutumnalTone said:
I think that's a nonsensical notion. We can certainly lose what we expect to have available without ever having "won" anything. And it has nothing to do with feeling ownership of anybody.
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Agree and disagree on this one. It's misleading and could send some down a wrong path. Can we technically lose a dream (expectation)? I suppose one could say that, but I hold to the fact you can't 'lose' something you don't posses.

"Expectations" are a whole other ball of wax and deserve a whole discussion themself. They are their own demon.

AutumnalTone said:
I expect my wife to hang around because she tells me she enjoys my company. I didn't "win" her company any more than I "won" the friendship of my best friend from high school.
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Oh really? Do you remember back to the first few dates? The 'pursuit' phase? Or maybe your relationship didn't develop like that. Ours really didn't. Some don't. But for a majority they do. Somebody wins, and somebody usually loses, if you are the type that sees life as a competition.

AutumnalTone said:
I certainly don't feel I own either of the two.
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Good. I hope this is a true, accurate and lived statement.

AutumnalTone said:
So the idea that fear of loss can only come from feeling we own somebody else just doesn't hold up to examination.
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Again, this is semantically incorrect, misleading, I think. You can't lose something you don't have. Basic. But that's more a topic for the philosophy forum than here. C'mon over anytime. It's a fun place.

AutumnalTone said:
I also find this nonsensical. Emotions are sometimes fleeting and vaporous, lasting but a moment. At other times they can burn in the hearth of someone's heart for ages. There's no guarantee of longevity of emotion. With that in mind, to say that a short-lived emotion never existed strikes me as a bit absurd.
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Again, context, not generalities. We're talking about love and respect here. We're not going to lose someone's love and respect if they were truly there in the first place, except through our own actions. We can become unrespectable through our actions and beliefs. People can change. The same, it seems, applies to love. But that seems even harder. Many people feel a form of love for people they have known intimately, and would come to their aid, if necessary. But they might just not like them anymore. Now THAT sounds nonsensical. But it is what it is.
 
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How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans, and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference? If not, what is its purpose?

Thanks, D
 
dingedheart said:
How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference. If not what is its purpose? Thanks D
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Wow, that seems like an impossible question. I feel no jealousy for my wife. In our relationship and our love I feel secure. I felt jealousy with my gf near the end of our relationship because I felt insecure. I was not jealous before that. It was made worse by me trying to fist fight it into submission instead of just letting it happen and accepting it for what it was.

Jealousy for me is completely based on the environment I sit in. Well, so far. I don't like absolutes, since anything can change.
 
dingedheart said:
How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference.? If not, what is its purpose?
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Anyone with kids can see jealousy in them from the earliest age. They squabble over toys and their parents' affection. I think it is a normal survival instinct that is based on scarcity, thinking there will not be enough to go around, and therefore trying to hoard things.
 
MonoVCPHG said:
Anyone with kids can see jealousy in them from the earliest age. They squabble over toys and their parents' affection. I think it is a normal survival instinct that is based on scarcity, thinking there will not be enough to go around and therefore trying to horde things.
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This rang a bell in my mind. (That hasn't happened much lately. Thanks, Mono.)

Would it be fair, as parents, to take responsibility for assuring (and reassuring) our children that there IS enough to go around? And then when there isn't (i.e., time/resources) that that is okay, and not something to be afraid of, knowing that more will come?

With this thinking, it would also be our responsibility, as the parent of our own inner child, to also reassure ourselves that we are okay, and everything will be fine? To take action, if necessary, but to otherwise let whatever it is be?
 
I think jealousy is learned. In a culture that is more communal and not focused on a scarcity-abundance dichotomy, where competition is healthy and meant to be a learning tool, I believe jealousy may not exist at all.

There is also another thread where several articles about jealousy were cited and/or pasted. Maybe that one could be moved and combined here with this thread:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5779
 
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FlameKat said:
This rang a bell in my mind.

Would it be fair to then, as parents, take responsibility for assuring (and reassuring) our children that there IS enough to go around, and then when there isn't (i.e., time/resources) that that is okay, and not something to be afraid of, knowing that more will come?

With this thinking, it would also be our responsibility, as the parent of our own inner child, to also reassure ourselves that we are okay, and everything will be fine? To take action, if necessary, but to otherwise let whatever it is be.
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Yes, it is our responsibility to do this. Even animals show signs of possible jealousy. Dogs compete for food and will try to eat everything because they are instinctively preparing for scarcity. I think that is natural to any species, but I am no biologist. Children display this behavior almost automatically. They also go through a phase of hitting, biting and crying to get what they want from others. I don't see these as learned behaviors but as a part of our biological makeup. A baby's cry is not learned, it's a biologically programmed tool to get what they need. I see jealousy as a part of our makeup, an emotion like anger, sadness, happiness and fear. But I'm no biologist.

There are things that we could die from. Food is a need that if scarce can cause death. Some people see love as a need, but would we die if it was scarce for a while? I doubt it.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jealousy


Jealousy is an emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values, such as a relationship, friendship, or love. Jealousy often consists of a combination of emotions such as anger, sadness, and disgust. It is not to be confused with envy.

Jealousy is a familiar experience in human relationships. It has been observed in infants five months and older. Some claim that jealousy is seen in every culture; however, others claim jealousy is a culture-specific phenomenon.

Jealousy as an emotion, or the impact of jealousy, has been a theme of many novels, songs, poems, films and other artistic works. It has also been a topic of interest for scientists, artists, and theologians. Psychologists have proposed several models of the processes underlying jealousy and have identified factors that result in jealousy. Sociologists have demonstrated that cultural beliefs and values play an important role in determining what triggers jealousy and what constitutes socially acceptable expressions of jealousy. Biologists have identified factors that may unconsciously influence the expression of jealousy. Artists have explored the theme of jealousy in photographs, paintings, movies, songs, plays, poems, and books. Theologians have offered religious views of jealousy based on the scriptures of their respective faiths.
 
MonoVCPHG said:
Yes, it is our responsibility to do this. Even animals show signs of possible jealousy. Dogs compete for food and will try to eat everything..because they are instinctively preparing for scarcity. I think that is natural to any species, but I am no biologist. Children display this behavior almost automatically. They also go through a phase of hitting to get what they want from others. I don't see these as learned behaviors, but as a part of our biological makeup. A baby's cry is not learned. It's a biologically programmed tool to get what they need. I see jealousy as a part of our makeup, an emotion like anger, sadness, happiness and fear. But I'm no biologist.

There are things that we could die from. Food is a need that if scarce can cause death. Some people see love as a need, but would we die if it were scarce for a while? I doubt it.
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I am with Mono on this. Jealousy is to do with belonging and the sense of it. "Do I belong? I seem to now be [...]. What is going on? (fear) Maybe I don't!" Something like that. I don't know if that is learned, so much as put on us as kids. New sibling = jealousy kind of thing. Same questions asked, I would think.
 
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I think scarcity is what it is all about. When it comes down to love, we are on the hook to figure out if there is enough based on our own criteria of what scarcity is; for some people that could be measured in the amount of touch, time, or words of affirmation. As a person giving love I think we have the responsibility to show that there is enough, to be genuine in letting someone know they have plenty of love through whatever means works as a valid form of communicating, sex, acts of service, words, etc. Merely knowing we love someone is not necessarily enough for that person to feel loved.
 
MonoVCPHG said:
I think scarcity is what it is all about. When it comes down to love, we are on the hook to figure out if there is enough based on our own criteria of what scarcity is; for some people that could be measured in the amount of touch, time, or words of affirmation. As a person giving love I think we have the responsibility to show that there is enough..to be genuine in letting someone know they have plenty of love through whatever means works as a valid form of communicating, sex, acts of service, words, etc. Merely knowing we love someone is not necessarily enough for that person to feel loved.
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Just want to quickly diverge somewhat off topic here. I have had a theory bubbling away since last night. Still in its infancy, but here goes...

Some time back we all posted on the love languages thread. Mine is physical touch. WW's is physical touch. My own need for physical touch is higher than WW's. But I have a tendency to get 'all touched out' and need time in my own space with nothing and no one asking anything of me. This would create a 'scarcity' at times.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make here is we have a couple here, poly/mono, in which the poly member has a need to communicate their love via physical touch. If the mono member is also a physical touch communicator, there would be a natural conflict, as their primary need for love communication is shared (in their perception. Remember the mono need for exclusivity) and at times scarce.

This is not to say we are unable of expressing and 'hearing' love communication in other ways. I'm simply saying that it creates a natural perception of scarcity for the mono member, which would cause the jealousy/hording instinct to kick in

Okay, there you have it. Very badly expressed, but I think it's mostly understandable.

I wonder if any other poly/mono couples out there (that come into conflict regularly on one topic) have matching primary love languages.

Without meaning to single you out, but given the recent posts, Mono/RP, I know Mono's love language is physical touch. Is RP's also? (Only asking as this may be another way to look at the issues for both of you) *backing way off again*

Even without both members having the same love language as primary, if the mono member has physical touch as their primary, I think it would be highly likely for jealousy to arise over physical intimacy with another partner, along with corresponding jealousies for the other love languages.

Okay, shoot my theory down.
 
FlameKat said:
It creates a natural perception of scarcity for the mono member, which could cause the jealousy/hording instinct to kick in.
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I'm not sure about that. If I look at myself as an example, I encourage and try to promote greater intimacy between Redpepper and PN/Derby. I often feel as though I have too much touch compared to others. I don't feel like a hoarder. Hmm... more thought on that one is needed.

Off to play Monopoly with the family. Ironic, huh? Monopoly.
 
Our love languages don't match, but both guys' are physical touch. I've always thought that alone might be part of why there's more "possessiveness" of sex on their part than mine. It's not my love language, so there isn't a sense of "need" for that in order for me to feel loved.
 
FlameKat said:
I know Mono's love language is physical touch. Is RP's also? (Only asking as this may be another way to look at the issues for both of you.) *backing way off again*
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Thanks for asking! That is a very good question and an interesting way of looking at it. Scarcity and love language as it relates to jealousy. Hmm... I would have to think more about it. There is something to be said there for us, I think.
 
MonoVCPHG said:
I'm not sure about that. If I look at myself as an example, I encourage and try to promote greater intimacy between Redpepper and PN/Derby. I often feel as though I have too much touch compared to others. I don't feel like a hoarder. Hmmm... Off to play Monopoly with the family! Ironic huh? Monopoly.
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Mmm, I understand that. If I may expand on my thoughts somewhat, you have mentioned many times that you have made it essential to your own well-being in the relationship, that PN's (who came before you) and RP's relationship does not suffer (whether because of you or not; you will facilitate their relationship for your own sanity, basically) *badly worded.* So therefore I would discount that in the workings of this theory as maintaining the status quo, or that their relationship is part and parcel of the foundations of your own relationship with RP.

Derby is female, and while there may have been some turmoil over her introduction, she is different and provides something you can't (in the view she is a female lover and you cannot become female), so possibly the subconscious perception is you are not missing out on something because it is not something you could give or receive? *again, badly worded*

Leo, on the other hand, (or any other male in the future) is an entirely different kettle of fish. He is newer than you; he is the same sex as you; therefore, the subconsciously perceived possibility is there that he would 'steal time/affection/touch' (as relates to another thread where one partner 'uses up' their sexual need with one partner regularly before returning to the 'missing out' partner).

While your conscious thoughts may be that you receive more than your share of RP's physical touch/time etc., maybe your subconscious is quite pleased with that situation and highly resistant to anything which may reduce that or threaten it (even if you don't consciously perceive it as a threat).

*I am not suggesting that this IS the case, but the possibility is interesting, and if it were true, I would think it would be buried quite deeply.*

Now my head is spinning quite nicely. Hopefully someone can follow that and tell me if I am completely off my rocker with this theory.
 
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