Children and Polyamory: Merged Threads, General Discussion

Children

Does anyone on here have children from two of their loves-- either two women who both have kids, in the same household or not, with the same love, or vise versa?

If so, was it planned or an accident? How is the relationship dynamic between the kids? What was difficult during the pregnancies?
 
The law and children?

I am new to polyamory. One of my partners has a three-year old son who I adore. Her mother has threatened to take her son from her if she continues in our relationship. I just wondered if it would be possible for the state to take her son from her for being in a poly relationship?
 
It depends where you live. In my province, BC, they can send me and my partners to jail for five years just for celebrating our union in some way.

You might want to do a tag search for "children" and "law" and see what comes up. It is a topic that has been written about here before.
 
It has happened to some people, but sometimes if the judge sees that there is no abuse, nor anything inappropriate going on for the children to be exposed to, they are returned. However, it is not something to be taken lightly. Depending on where you are, and the circumstances of family members threatening such action, many poly families to not come out publicly about their situations.

The best thing for your partner to do is consult an attorney where you live. And you might want to lay low for a while and not flaunt the relationship, unfortunately.
 
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Check lovemore.com it gives a little information on this. Yes, it's possible the child can be taken just because of your relationship. Poly is not easily understood by many, and those are the ones that consider it immoral, and unfortunately, in the US, 99.9% of the judicial system is made of people like that.
 
What you are talking about is grandparents' rights. In general, all but a few states in the US no longer have grandparents' rights. In fact, the very concept has been ruled unconstitutional. However, since it involves civil law, it will take each state having a case rise that high in the court system, or the legislature overruling the laws, before it will be revoked.

In no state in the US do grandparents' rights extend to a situation where an intact, nuclear family exists. So, if the mother and legal father are legally married, then no grandparents can interfere and attempt to exert control for custody or visitation. In the states where grandparents' rights do exist, this does not pertain to any non-intact family, aka any configuration other than the aforementioned one.

So, suing for custody may or may not even be an option where you live. She needs to consult an attorney. Lots of angry grandparents can say stuff like this. Only a lawyer can tell you if it's even a possibility in your circumstances.

However, there is also the risk of someone calling Social Services and a child welfare determination that something puts the child at risk. Normally, Social Services tries to not remove children unless absolutely necessary. However, that is not guaranteed.

My husband and I are the legal parents of all of our children and are legally married. Our children are at no risk from outsiders because we are able to protect them. However, our partner is a single mother with a contentious ex. For that reason, we have all agreed we must remain very careful until her children are completely safe from outside interference. We cannot protect her children in the same way we can protect ours. We can best protect them by not being open in ways that would put her and her children at risk.
 
Get professional legal help

We had a child custody issue go really badly because our lawyer sucked and wasn't prepared. This was more about a pending divorce from my ex. But there are case laws in every area. We had CPS come see us and clear us. We have our children in sports. We are active in youth sports as coaches, and those background checks were clear. We are professionals. My ex filed complainants to our bosses and those were shot down.

If it weren't for getting a better lawyer we would have had to appeal the first ruling.
 
My wife and I are just now trying to figure out what to tell our girls, ages 9 and 12, about my developing relationship with another woman. They know I've been spending time with her, and know I spent the night at her apartment this past Monday.

My wife and I treated it as the most ordinary thing in the world, having Daddy spend the night away from home, even though I wasn't going out of town.

That's all they know officially, though I have reason to think our 12-year old suspects more than that. She may be worried about it. Whenever I mention the name of my new love, she gets very quiet.

Reading this thread confirms my instinct: it's difficult to strike the balance between too much information and too little. Erring either way could be bad.

I'm planning to bring this up over dinner in an hour or so. We've laid some of the groundwork, in the past year, by emphasizing that, even though my partner and I are married, we do not own one another. That will be our starting point, I think: partnership, not ownership, and a partnership based on honesty, consent, and trust that doesn't exclude close relationships with others. Beyond that, we'll just have to improvise.

Probably the most important thing will be to offer reassurance that the new relationships my wife and I each develop do not change anything essential about our partnership, or our commitment to the girls.

Of course, the best-laid plans . . .
 
hyperskeptic said:
Reading this thread confirms my instinct: it's difficult to strike the balance between too much information and too little. Erring either way could be bad.
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I'd say be ready for the worst, but expect the best. :) I told my 14-year old daughter about three months ago. On some level she may have known, but it still came as a surprise. She was incredibly open to the idea, and I think that comes from our family discussing things like tolerance of religion/orientation and how not everyone conforms to society's 'norms,' and that's OK. She had some questions centered around jealousy, and we addressed them. I gave her a G-rated version of the relationship, because she does not need details. She can fill in the blanks. So far, so good.

My son was not told anything. He's turning 11 soon and started to notice how much I 'liked' my boyfriend and how I was spending time with him by going over regularly. He told me just the other day that he could tell I 'liked' him and that I was probably 'socially' attracted to him. That last bit almost make me laugh uncontrollably. :p He obviously meant sexually attracted, but misheard and misspoke the term. That was priceless! lol

All I did was agree that I liked him and told my son we got along well. He was satisfied with that. I'll deal out info as required, in small amounts, since he's still a bit young.

Good luck with your plans. :)
 
My son is 10 and is willfully oblivious to anything to do with sex or dating. We've had friends crashing at our place since before he can remember, so anyone spending the night seems normal to him. He treats Wendigo as something akin to an uncle, since his own uncles aren't around much or interested in the same stuff he is. Loveleigh is a recent addition to our lives, but he had a blast when her kids slept over, and he's sleeping over at her house tomorrow night while we all go out for St. Patrick's Day. (Her underage sister is babysitting for us.) Runic Wolf referred to her as his girlfriend in front of him last week, and if he noticed, he didn't say anything or question it.

Just remember to take your cues from your own children about what info and how much they are ready to take in.
 
hyperskeptic said:
... I have reason to think our 12-year-old suspects more than that. She may be worried about it: whenever I mention the name of my new love, she gets very quiet.
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To kids brought up on a diet of monogamy, a parent seeing someone else means cheating and probably imminent divorce. I'd prefer to tell them and prevent that worry, rather than attempt to hide it and have them always waiting for the other shoe to fall. But I don't have kids, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
hyperskeptic, please let us know how it goes.
 
For Hyperskeptic:

I would definitely talk to each daughter (age 9 & age 12) separately, not together at the dinner table. (Or introduce the idea at dinner, then make separate conversations later). There is a big difference between what you know/think about sex & relationships at age 9 versus age 12. Each daughter will probably have a totally different reaction.

Just as an example:

When I was 9: I had a crush on a boy who always asked for my help with his math homework. But when my mother told me that his mother told her that he liked me and wanted to dance with me at the ballroom dance lessons we were being forced by our mothers to take, I was so mortified I tried to get out of the dance lessons. At the dance class, I tried hard not to look at him or speak to him. I definitely did not dance with him. I was terrified that he might want to kiss me, which would be disgusting.

At age 9, I was also trying to wrap my mind around the concept that a penis goes into a vagina and that this bizarre event creates a baby. Around this time, I learned about the concept of birth control & condoms, which confused me even more.

I remember being so perplexed that I was almost in tears, and I asked my mother: "If sex is for having babies, why on earth would anyone have sex with birth control? What would be the point?" My mother tried to keep a straight face while she explained that people have sex because it is fun. I was astonished, but also felt like a lot of things about the world suddenly made more sense.

I was convinced, however, that my parents no longer had sex because, my gosh, they were so old. I was flabbergasted to learn that they did indeed still have sex (with each other); so that was astounding enough without having to wrap my mind around a poly arrangement.

When I was 12: I desperately, desperately wanted a boy to kiss me. But I was convinced that I was so ugly no one would ever want me. I liked a boy who liked the popular, flirty, stupid girls that I hated.

I had started thinking about sex constantly. I checked out books at the library only after browsing through them to see if they might have sex scenes. (I read way above my age level). I started sneaking romance novels into my room. I was very close to figuring how to give myself an orgasm.

By age 12, I also understood that my parents still had sex (with each other!), which was gross, but I did think it was nice that they were healthy and happy and that sex was a good thing in general.

I still had a LOT of questions about sex, but they were not at all the same questions I had had when I was 9.

In summary:

1) a 9-year-old is still trying to figure out what sex is and why anyone would want to date anyone at all

2) a 12-year-old is trying to make sense of her own sexual feelings and is dealing with the horrible insecurities of adolescence

3) both kids will be more preoccupied with their own love lives than with yours!

So, please speak to them individually. (They will probably compare notes with each other later, in private, which is fine.)

And I agree with the advice that your 12-year-old is probably worried that you are having an affair that will lead to divorce.
 
I like what you said Meera. However, I do agree that it was only your experience.

In my experience, I knew all about the workings of sex, and that it was used for pleasure, from a very young age, possibly 6 or so. I began experimenting with masturbation at about age 9 and also began seeing girls a different way. I didn't actually have a girlfriend til I was 13, and lost my virginity at 15. Never had any kinda talk with my mum or dad about any sex and relationships stuff. All just happened in my own time. A lot of biased info from inexperienced friends. But I eventually just found out for myself and was fine with all that.

One thing I do wish though, is that someone had been there when I was ready to ask questions. I didn't care at all about having someone sit me down and talk about stuff like that. But when I had the questions, I would have wanted to be able to confide in my mother, or someone better than my friends, at least.
 
What and when to tell a child

This is probably the most difficult question for me, now that I am considering committing to the lifestyle and philosophy of polyamory. My 22 yr old son has had difficulty with his mom and me divorcing, and he hated going back and forth between homes as a kid. And the fact that he has birth parents 14,000 miles away in South America (whom he may never know) adds to his sense of abandonment.

I almost think it's genetic, or at least strongly cultural, that a young person wants to know where he belongs and to whom. And when that picture gets fragmented, it is very difficult for them.

So, my thought at the moment is to say nothing about polyamory, and certainly not to use "that word." The bond between a parent and a child seems the strongest of human bonds, more so than the bond of lovers or partners. So, the bond with my son is my first commitment. Maybe some day, there may be a way to explain to him that my clock wasn't wound up to be monogamous.
 
Advice about talking to children

My wife and I have recently had our trinogamous partner move in with us. This means the three of us tend to want to sleep in the same bed. However, we have a 6-year old and a 10-year old who often want to either climb in bed with us (it's big enough) if they have bad dreams, or they want to come in in the morning and wake us up.

We definitely don't want to kick our partner out of bed at night. We want her to be an equal part of our lives. We also don't like hiding things from our kids. We are very honest parents, we don't believe in lying to them. So, the question we have is how have others approached this with their kids and talked about it? Mainly this is something we want to discuss with our 10-year old, because he is old enough to see that she is more than "a friend" to both of us. We would like to talk to him, but wonder at what level we should explain it. Do we talk about bisexuality with him? Is he old enough to take it that far?

I want him to understand that she isn't MY girlfriend. She is more than that for both of us. We want to do this in a respectful way.
 
I hadn't found search yet. New to the forum, as of today.

That thread was very useful. We have always raised our son understanding about homosexuality, because I have a lesbian sister, and we are active PFLAG members. We actually opted to talk to him tonight, while our partner is returning with more to move in. The talk went amazingly well.

I believe it is important to explain to children, because my parents were swingers and thought we didn't know. I remember "catching" them accidentally in kisses, embraces or touches on several occasions, and just being confused by it, thinking I did something wrong. Not something I wanted for my kids to go through.

The talk went really well. I am so happy that the kids are being raised in such a loving family environment. Our partner was so happy that we told our son. She really loves him, and she felt it was important for our son not to think something "bad" was happening if he ever happened to witness a touch or something. She feels so much more comfortable just "being" now.
 
Children and poly-- it is healthy?

Hi all,

I started discussing the issue of children in poly relationships with my GF last night and it got us thinking. There is a personal slant to this question, plus a general one. I currently live in the UK, and my GF and her husband live in the US. I live there for half the year, until I can move permanently. They have a three-year old daughter (I'll call her Baby).

When I live with them in the US, I have my own room, and my GF divides her time between her husband's bed and my bed. Secondaries are not in the picture, when it comes to Baby, so that's a non-issue.

Baby is aware (for a three-year old) of our poly V and currently seems very happy with the situation. Baby and I are like best friends; she never leaves me alone and has never displayed any upset or confusion.

When she draws a house, she draws the four of us outside. When I'm away, she talks going to my house "at the airport" to see me, almost every day. It's clear that in her mind, we are a family. It's wonderful to see how accepting children are... but we are a bit worried.

First problem-- my GF's family are completely against it. Her husband's family do not even know. My GF's mother (I'll call her Granny) has Baby every two weekends, for two or three nights.

Baby loves Granny very much and this is one of the only reasons my GF stays in contact with her mother. Granny's relationship with me is frosty, despite my efforts. She will not look at me, speak to me, acknowledge my presence, or my existence when I am not present.

We are worried about how Granny may affect our daughter as she grows up. She's beyond disapproving when she speaks to my GF. We have thought about cutting contact with her, but we do not want take away that special relationship between Granny and Baby. To be honest, it also really helps us out to have Granny look after her every two weekends.

She's just started pre-school and my GF calls me their au pair. We are concerned about what teachers should or shouldn't know.

We aren't sure what we should tell Baby as she's growing up, since she will tell friends, and friends will tell their parents, etc. I know that children can be bullied for anything, but we want to make sure we are being responsible.

How does it work for you? Are there any problems that we should expect in the future, any stumbling blocks you feel are worth pointing out? We'd love to hear your experiences and thoughts!
 
I've written about this at length in my personal blog.

We have 4 kids, ages 5, 12, 16, 20. and a grandson age 1.5.

We've been honest and upfront with them, and they all know where to find me if they need me, at certain times in Maca's bedroom, at others in GG's bedroom.

We are also upfront and open with our extended family. The ones who had a problem with it were given the option of keeping their opinions to themselves or departing our lives. End of subject.

It's VERY hard on kids to have adults who treat other meaningful adults in their lives with disdain.

I love my dad, but that's why he is no longer a part of my life. His and his wife's malice towards GG (my boyfriend) was so upsetting and concerning to our youngest (who was 3 at the time) that she is STILL traumatized and there was only ONE WEEK that she was around all of them and aware of an issue.

On the upside, we've introduced GG as our roommate, nanny, or uncle over the years at the schools, and have had no issue there.

As for other kids, again, no issues. Other kids come over all of the time and even stay the night.

Good luck!
 
Sigh... This is why I don't want to be open with kids. But here's what I'd do.

DISCLAIMER: I apologize if I sound harsh, but in these moments I find it easier to just spit it out, in the hopes of moving something forward, even if it is hard to hear. So since you asked for feedback, I humbly offer it with good intentions.

Baby loves Granny very much, and this is one of the only reasons my GF stays in contact with her mother. Granny's relationship with me is frosty, despite my efforts, she will not look at me, speak to me, acknowledge my presence, or my existence when I am not present.
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This is because of Granny's OWN discomfort. NOT YOU. Your presence makes her confront and face things within her that feel yucky. It's easier to project it on you (the not wanting to feel yucky) than to harness that to do the personal growth work it takes within to not give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks! To embrace other people being happy in an alternative family model. To embrace that what you thought was your vision of your child's destiny is NOT what the grown child (your GF) chooses for herself. To love her child (the GF) in whatever presentation she wishes to be, even if it is a foreign presentation to her (the old parent.)

We are worried about how Granny may effect our daughter as she grows up. She's beyond disapproving when she speaks to my GF.
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GF needs to stand her ground as an adult person and say, "Granny, I love you, but this poor treatment of me must stop, or else I cannot be around you. And I will not be. "

That she continues to take abuse from Granny teaches Granny that is is BASICALLY OK TO KEEP ON DOING IT, and this reinforces to Granny her opinion that it is "wrong" to be in this formation. It is NOT wrong. You be how you wish to be. But be like honorable Jedi about it. GF is not honoring herself to allow verbal/emotional abuse to slide at the hands of the mother.

Baby is growing up watching this. You do NOT want her growing up thinking it is ok to take crap from close people. You don't need to pre-groom her for some domestic-battering partner, for instance! Children are sponges.

We have thought about cutting contact with her, but we do not want take away that special relationship between Granny and Baby. To be honest, it also really helps us out to have Granny look after her every two weekends.
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Baby is three and won't give a damn, and if ties need cutting, better sooner in Baby's life than later. It's because you guys like having the time off without having to work for it too hard in Babysitter Juggly Land. Own this.

It is also because GF is not ready to have the classic apron strings moment with her mom. She still wants to be a mom pleaser. Own that too.
GF is not ready to say, "I love you, but I do not love THIS, your treatment of my other loved ones. So behave in a civil manner, or I will remove myself from the equation, and grieve and miss you. But I won't tolerate this treatment of me and my loved ones, not even from YOU."

She's just started pre-school. My GF calls me their au pair. We are concerned about what teachers should or shouldn't know. What we should tell Baby as she's growing up, since she will tell friends and friends will tell their parents, etc. I know that children can be bullied for anything, but we want to make sure we are being responsible.
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That is a stickier wicket than Granny. I do not know your area. I do not know how safe you may be as "out." So if your polyship decides to remain with you as the silent partner, or go with the role of "au pair" or "godmother" through these early school ages, good enough, so long as you all arrive at the agreement for this polyship together.

Baby herself -- I'd just live life as ordinary as you can make it. Then, when when she starts asking about why her family is structured differently than others, start with talks about how babies come-- bio babies, foster babies, adopted babies. Leave it there. Next time, stretch it out to how parents come-- from divorces as step-parent people, and lead it to "when a heart is so big it takes three to hold it" -- the land of poly.

It is ALL ok, it is ALL acceptable, but the sad reality is that some people don't like it because it makes them uncomfortable. They have not yet grown their hearts big enough to be ok with how other people want to live. You have endless children's books (How the Grinch Stole Xmas is classic, Heather Has Two Mommies, etc.) even if not actually on poly to help you in your discussion.

How does it work for you? Are there any problems that we should expect in the future, any stumbling blocks you feel are worth pointing out?
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What to do when you get outed, including outed by the child herself. It's not IF. It's WHEN. That is a reality best planned for.

The reality of the polyship ending, and your role in the child's life after that as the non-bio person. If you want to maintain a parental role, are the papers drawn up so? As her godmother? Or similar? What about if the partner's have accident and die? Do you get custody of her? Does she shoosh over to Granny?

Think these things all the way through carefully.
 
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