Disentanglement

[kdt26417]

When you say "the article," I take it you mean The Most Skipped Step When Opening a Relationship? To my best recollection the overall theme was, "It is unhealthy to be overly entangled in any relationship, even a mono relationship." Obviously there is an added advantage to disentangling in a poly situation, but even without that advantage, disentangling is good general advice. At least I think that's what the article says.

 

[vinsanity0]

It’s been awhile since I read the article so I can’t quote any specifics. But the umbrella seemed pretty large and to me at the time I wondered if the word was correct in its direct usage and intent. By that I mean it’s really a method of conditioning. And the intent is to create gaps and space in schedule and routines to allow for a new romantic interest. And then the practical logic ...I’m going to disentangle from my married partner to entangle with someone or others romantically.

But the goal isn't to disentangle with one partner so you can just get all entangled with another. The goal is to reach a level of entanglement that is acceptable to everyone. That being said, it does happen the way you described sometimes when NRE is involved.

I stopped wearing my wedding band and I definitely stopped amusing even when she was home she was available. I also wasn’t overly eager to engage in the new system. If that makes any sense. I thought I’d sit back and see / watch what her interests and desires were.

It's always a good idea to not assume anything. Personal experience tells me it's not good to sit back and see like that. It's best to advocate for yourself. Otherwise you are giving your partner the impression that you are not interested.

Is this example a case of unintended consequences like be careful what you wish for?

I think the Big regrets are when people are shocked to learn someone seemly did stuff for yrs that they didn’t really enjoy....I can’t think of a really good example but let’s just say Camping. And then 15 yrs later in therapy or something it comes out and you’re looking at the person questioning what the hell else is there you thought you knew.

Or...you could think that was awfully nice of them to do something you like. Everybody compromises like that, don't they?

 

[icesong]

Or...you could think that was awfully nice of them to do something you like. Everybody compromises like that, don't they?

I hope not, at least not without *saying* that's what they're doing. Like "OK, I don't love camping but you do so we can definitely go. I also want to go stay in a fancy resort on a different vacation even though that's not your thing, as that's the sort of vacation I want."

Compromise is great, as long as both sides are doing it. SECRET compromise is not.

 

[dingedheart]

When you say "the article," I take it you mean The Most Skipped Step When Opening a Relationship? To my best recollection the overall theme was, "It is unhealthy to be overly entangled in any relationship, even a mono relationship." Obviously there is an added advantage to disentangling in a poly situation, but even without that advantage, disentangling is good general advice. At least I think that's what the article says.

Thanks so much for posting this. It was my intention to find it and do so as well however not enough hr in the day. Thanks.

 

[dingedheart]

But the goal isn't to disentangle with one partner so you can just get all entangled with another. The goal is to reach a level of entanglement that is acceptable to everyone. That being said, it does happen the way you described sometimes when NRE is involved.

I thought the goal was condition more individualism and break from routines couplism / coupledom. To start making spaces in schedules/ time that could be later filled with dating activities.

So do you think disentangling is an accurate and meaningful way of describing this process ??

It's always a good idea to not assume anything. Personal experience tells me it's not good to sit back and see like that. It's best to advocate for yourself. Otherwise you are giving your partner the impression that you are not interested.

I agree 100% especially in a new poly dynamic....DONT assume anything. New game with new expectations and new concerns.

I do see you point on advocating for yourself however I was one of the poly bombed. I was sold the dream so to speak. I was told over and over again that her love and desire hasn’t or wouldn’t diminish but actually grow. OK so that being the case I should see or feel that in actions and words. Also the last thing I wanted is to look like on week 1 or 2 is competitive loser desperately afraid of losing his wife. Like the last 15 yrs I’ve been an asshole and I need to make up for it. I wasn’t and I didn’t ...at least IMO. In my head the best way to proceed was to carry on like the weeks leading up to this grand new decision/ open/ poly dynamic.

Or...you could think that was awfully nice of them to do something you like. Everybody compromises like that, don't they?

I guess but it puts lots of questions in the air and you don’t know the truth and maybe it’s just me BUT I’d much rather someone was totally honest with me than fake enjoying an activity or pretending to like a meal, or faking orgasms or whatever the case.

 

[dingedheart]

Re (from dingedheart):
Snowbunny (the wife) and I fell in love, at the time we did not know about poly, Snowbunny did some web research and discovered poly, then she sat down with her husband and asked him if he would be willing to try it. Mind you, he did not say yes right away. They had many talks over the course of about a year. Eventually he said okay.

Has he or they ever discussed what was a turning point in saying ok ?

Did he do lots of separate research on this possibly from your now famous link list ?

I don't think they did any disentangling per se. They did make room in their schedules for me, both me with just Snowbunny and me with both of them (platonic activities). He and I (I refer to him here as Brother-Husband) also have platonic activities together, mostly watching stuff on TV.

Do the 2 of you include each other with other guy friends. Say I’m going out for a few with ( ......) would you like to come along ?

To be honest Snowbunny "wears the pants" in this house, and it's primarily her idea to keep the anniversaries going. I will say she makes the right call, as Brother-Husband is a holiday-and-special-occasion type of guy, and he would be sorely disappointed if their anniversaries went away.

Are you suggesting she’s doing this out of tradition or a gesture to make him feel more grounded in the relationship vs stripping that away might cause some damage ??

Heck and as for me, maybe my okayness is my way of saying, "Here's one thing I won't take away."

Excellent point.

 

[Magdlyn]

I thought the goal was to condition more individualism in yourselves, break out of routine coupledom, start making spaces in your schedules that could be later filled in with dating activities.

I agree 100%, especially in a new poly dynamic. Don't assume anything. It's a new game, with new expectations and new concerns.

I do see your point, about advocating for yourself. However, I was one of the "poly bombed." I was sold the dream, so to speak. I was told over and over again that her love and desire hadn’t and wouldn’t diminish, but actually grow.

That being the case, I should have seen or felt that in actions and words. Also, the last thing I wanted was to look, on week 1 or 2, like a competitive loser who was desperately afraid of losing his wife, like, during the last 15 yrs I’d been an asshole and I needed to make up for it.

I wasn’t, and I didn’t, at least IMO. In my head, the best way to proceed was to carry on as I did in the weeks leading up to this grand new decision to be open, to begin a poly dynamic.

I guess, but it puts lots of questions in the air, and you don’t know the truth. Maybe it’s just me, but I’d much rather that someone was totally honest with me than fake enjoying an activity, or pretend to like a meal, or fake orgasms, or whatever the case may be.

Remind me, dinged, how long ago your wife poly-bombed you. Have you ever had therapy? You keep coming here as a bitter betrayed ex-husband, and you're still trying to get closure, it seems. It seems to me it's been at least 5 years, if not longer.

Are you still single?

 

[ref2018]

Remind me, dinged, how long ago your wife poly-bombed you. Have you ever had therapy? You keep coming here as a bitter betrayed ex-husband, and you're still trying to get closure, it seems. It seems to me it's been at least 5 years, if not longer.

Are you still single?

It was 2011. All you need to do is look at the date he registered on the forum.

If you click on a user's profile and go to the "statistics" tab, it will let you see their activity by posts and threads started.

 

[kdt26417]

The way I understand disentanglement doctrine is, that one should always have room in one's time/life for one's own identity and interests. So, if one is monogamous, one's time should be divided in half: one half for one's self, the other half for one's partner. If you have two partners, you would divide your time into three parts: two parts for your two partners, and one part for yourself. If you have three partners, you would divide your time into four parts ... and so on. Obviously you could get polysaturated rather quick; you should only have as many partners as you can handle with fairness to each partner, as well as a "disentanglement slot" for yourself. Does that make sense?

Re (from dingedheart):

"Re:

'Snowbunny and I fell in love, at the time we did not know about poly, Snowbunny did some web research and discovered poly, then she sat down with her husband and asked him if he would be willing to try it. Mind you, he did not say yes right away. They had many talks over the course of about a year. Eventually he said okay.'

Has he or they ever discussed what was a turning point in saying okay?"

Brother-Husband (as I call him -- or BH for short) isn't what you'd call inclined to talk about heavy relationship topics -- hell or even light relationship topics. From what little he has said, I (we -- Snowbunny and I) have gathered that he had a process where he started out with strict Catholic conditioning -- marriage is for one man, one woman -- and over the course of his talks with SB (Snowbunny) about poly, poly gradually lost its eerie strangeness and became a relatively familiar topic to him. To sum it up, he got used to the idea. And that was his turning "point" (to the extent that there was any one point).

Re:

"Did he do lots of separate research on this possibly from your now-famous link list?"

Back in those days, I did not have a link list ... and even if I had, he probably wouldn't have looked at it. Separate research isn't really his style -- unless it's research about sports or home improvement -- certainly not if it's research about relationships. I think he is (and was) more comfortable letting SB feed into his mind the thoughts that she felt he should digest -- he holds her in very high esteem, and trusts her to do the relationship research for him. A strange dynamic perhaps, but one that works for us.

Re:

"Re:

'I don't think they did any disentangling per se. They did make room in their schedules for me, both me with just Snowbunny and me with both of them. He and I also have platonic activities together, mostly watching stuff on TV.'

Do the two of you include each other with other guy friends? Say, 'I'm going out for a few with (...) would you like to come along?"

We have done that before, yes. We don't have a lot of friends local to us, so, there aren't a lot of opportunities like that. But when there are ...

Of note is our "Friendly Neighbor Guy" (FNG for short), who is kind of a joint friend to all three of us. This last recent Fourth of July we spent most of the afternoon and evening at his house. He is our "shared friend."

Re:

"Re:

'To be honest Snowbunny "wears the pants" in this house, and it's primarily her idea to keep the anniversaries going. I will say she makes the right call, as Brother-Husband is a holiday-and-special-occasion type of guy, and he would be sorely disappointed if their anniversaries went away.'

Are you suggesting she's doing this out of tradition, or a gesture to make him feel more grounded in the relationship, versus, stripping that away might cause some damage?"

Hmmmm ... I suppose that's exactly what I'm suggesting. BH is kind of grounded in tradition, so, stripping that away might indeed cause some damage, both to him personally, and to his relationship with her.

Hopefully that answers your questions ...
Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[vinsanity0]

I hope not, at least not without *saying* that's what they're doing. Like "OK, I don't love camping but you do so we can definitely go. I also want to go stay in a fancy resort on a different vacation even though that's not your thing, as that's the sort of vacation I want."

Compromise is great, as long as both sides are doing it. SECRET compromise is not.

That's interesting. I never felt the need to negotiate compromise in that manner. Probably because we mostly had similar interests. We also had activities we did on our own that the other had no interest in.

With Sprite I compromised on public play, but enjoyed being with her anyway. I didn't feel the need to negotiate because we already did things I liked. But I didn't feel any need to tell her I was compromising. Why spoil her fun like that?

 

[vinsanity0]

I thought the goal was condition more individualism and break from routines couplism / coupledom. To start making spaces in schedules/ time that could be later filled with dating activities.

So do you think disentangling is an accurate and meaningful way of describing this process ??




I agree 100% especially in a new poly dynamic....DONT assume anything. New game with new expectations and new concerns.

I do see you point on advocating for yourself however I was one of the poly bombed. I was sold the dream so to speak. I was told over and over again that her love and desire hasn’t or wouldn’t diminish but actually grow. OK so that being the case I should see or feel that in actions and words. Also the last thing I wanted is to look like on week 1 or 2 is competitive loser desperately afraid of losing his wife. Like the last 15 yrs I’ve been an asshole and I need to make up for it. I wasn’t and I didn’t ...at least IMO. In my head the best way to proceed was to carry on like the weeks leading up to this grand new decision/ open/ poly dynamic.




I guess but it puts lots of questions in the air and you don’t know the truth and maybe it’s just me BUT I’d much rather someone was totally honest with me than fake enjoying an activity or pretending to like a meal, or faking orgasms or whatever the case.

That is exactly what it is. I suppose calling it disentangling can be confusing, because the goal should be to still be a couple so it sounds counterintuitive. But the goal is to have more than one couple relationship, right? So you want to have enough individualism to do that.

It sounds like you were testing your wife. Well she said everything would be better so you stepped back to see if she would make things better. Relationships don't work like that. You can't write a script in your head then get disappointed that your partner didn't follow the script they didn't know existed. You have to participate.

I guess I don't expect someone to do something they absolutely hate so I don't worry too much about that. I mean, I had a woman ask me if I would go to church with her occasionally and I said no. But if I had said yes she would have known that I was only doing it for her. So maybe the key is to know your partner well enough to know if they are compromising or not. If my wife had suddenly wanted to go deep sea fishing with me I would have known something was up lol.

 

[Magdlyn]

Remind me, dinged, how long ago your wife poly-bombed you. Have you ever had therapy? You keep coming here as a bitter betrayed ex-husband, and you're still trying to get closure, it seems. It seems to me it's been at least 5 years, if not longer.

Are you still single?

It was 2011. All you need to do is look at the date he registered on the forum.

If you click on a user's profile and go to the "statistics" tab, it will let you see their activity by posts and threads started.

Thanks, ref. I know how to click on a user profile, but I didn't think to do that. I appreciate that.

January, 2011. 9.5 years, dingedheart, and you're still coming to a polyamory board and getting triggered by threads and trying to figure out what went wrong with your marriage. It seems you haven't gotten closure, haven't moved on, and maybe have not found a new person to date in all that time, with any success.

Please feel free to correct me.

You're now trying to focus in on how your ex wife pretended to like golf, to prove somehow that she was doing that from a place of fakeness, instead of out of love, and therefore, she's a complete fake and that is why she poly-bombed you and "lied" about poly making your marriage stronger. I don't know if the 2 correlate.

I get frustrated, when others try to counsel people, when they focus on the surface question(s), in this case, disentanglement, instead of on the deeper issues. I did family counseling for twenty-seven years. The first question is never the real question. It's almost always something deeper that needs to come out into the light and be worked on, worked through, and healed.

 

[dingedheart]

Remind me, dinged, how long ago your wife poly-bombed you. Have you ever had therapy? You keep coming here as a bitter betrayed ex-husband, and you're still trying to get closure, it seems. It seems to me it's been at least 5 years, if not longer.

Are you still single?

Always appreciate your interpretation of what’s relevant in a thread.

So WRONG...... I keep coming here for the learning and the collegiate spirit of discussing relationship ideas and debating topics.

I’m confused as to want in this thread warrants your CONTINUED personal attacks. It would be like me following you and every time you post on a thread and instead of commenting on the thread or issues being discussed BUT instead i try to diminish you comments because I find you sad and pathetic.

So when you list examples from your marriage about your husbands crippling jealousy ( every chance you can get ) and it’s effect it had on you and your marriage those are just facts but when a draw examples it’s bitter venting looking for closure ???? Really?



Yes I’m Solo poly

 

[dingedheart]

That is exactly what it is. I suppose calling it disentangling can be confusing, because the goal should be to still be a couple so it sounds counterintuitive. But the goal is to have more than one couple relationship, right? So you want to have enough individualism to do that.

Well for people advocating clear, honest open communication where words matter yes it could be confusing. If someone is a literalist and their spouse is more of a general Picture / concept person Is could be confusing.

It sounds like you were testing your wife. Well she said everything would be better so you stepped back to see if she would make things better. Relationships don't work like that. You can't write a script in your head then get disappointed that your partner didn't follow the script they didn't know existed. You have to participate.

I wouldn’t say at the time i had a specific mindset of testing but rather it was sold as “ nothing has changed Or would change ) and with some optimistic sprinkles on top Things would get better.... yet it felt like there was a pretty significant change and that I would follow her lead. Ever play a new game or introduced to a new sport and you watch or follow along trying to learn for a bit??? That’s how I would characterize My mindset. Was it the right call ...maybe not.

I guess I don't expect someone to do something they absolutely hate so I don't worry too much about that. I mean, I had a woman ask me if I would go to church with her occasionally and I said no. But if I had said yes she would have known that I was only doing it for her. So maybe the key is to know your partner well enough to know if they are compromising or not. If my wife had suddenly wanted to go deep sea fishing with me I would have known something was up lol.

I think the bell curve on doing certain activities out of coupledom and doing things you HATE ...or hate hate hate might be on the extreme outside.


What if your wife wanting to go deep sea fishing with a new partner. What would that suggest ??

 

[Magdlyn]

I always appreciate your interpretation of what’s relevant in a thread.

This statement seems sarcastic. I know you do sincerely appreciate my wisdom sometimes.

I keep coming here for the learning, and the collegiate spirit of discussing relationship ideas and debating topics.

Fair enough.

I’m confused as to what in this thread warrants your personal attacks.

This was not a personal attack, by any means. A personal attack would be to say, for example, "You are a jerk." This thread was all over the place, and stemmed from finding your ex wife's unused golf clubs in your garage, which seemed to trigger a lot of bitterness about her falsity and her seeming lies about what polyamory, and the way she handled it, meant to the (end of) your marriage. You seemed to imply she had lied about many things to you even before she wanted to Open the marriage.

You seemed to need help understanding how people get entangled, of if it's possible to share interests in a healthy way.

I let this thread go on for over a week before I was able to see how the meaning of it (disentanglement) seemed to relate to your triggers. I do think it's valid to discuss disentanglement, but I often find your posts rambling and confusing (although I'm sure your point is clear in your head). I find it hard to see just where they are leading, what your real question is, and what conclusions you reach, if any.

I felt like, with the post I quoted, I finally got your point!

It would be like me following you, and every time you post on a thread, instead of commenting on the thread or the issues being discussed, instead I tried to diminish your comments, because I find you sad and pathetic.

So when you list examples from your marriage about your husband's crippling jealousy (every chance you can get) and the effect it had on you and your marriage, those are just facts. But when I draw examples, it’s bitter venting looking for closure. Really?

My separation was in 2008, and my divorce was final in 2011. I feel I've moved on. I've made a lot of changes in how I do relationships since then. I share my personal experiences when I think new members are dealing with similar issues. It could be I mention my ex's jealousy and low self esteem, but I also often talk about other partners I've had since, especially my anchor partner.

I know that trying to live partly against my nature for 30 years was a mistake. But since I was dating and then got married in the dark ages of the 1970s, I think partly excuses me taking the bad along with the good for so long (and as you may recall, I experienced more good than bad). I don't think I harp on that particular topic, but I do want to help people benefit from my mistakes. Maybe that's your intention too?

Yes, I’m solo poly.

You're polyamorous? You date? You have had, or have ongoing relationships? I've never seen you mention any romantic partners, or any of the issues you may have had with them, in all this time, so I assumed you've been single and consumed with bitterness for 9.5 years. Silly Mags! I'm glad to hear that is not the case.

 

[vinsanity0]

Well for people advocating clear, honest open communication where words matter yes it could be confusing. If someone is a literalist and their spouse is more of a general Picture / concept person Is could be confusing.




I wouldn’t say at the time i had a specific mindset of testing but rather it was sold as “ nothing has changed Or would change ) and with some optimistic sprinkles on top Things would get better.... yet it felt like there was a pretty significant change and that I would follow her lead. Ever play a new game or introduced to a new sport and you watch or follow along trying to learn for a bit??? That’s how I would characterize My mindset. Was it the right call ...maybe not.




I think the bell curve on doing certain activities out of coupledom and doing things you HATE ...or hate hate hate might be on the extreme outside.


What if your wife wanting to go deep sea fishing with a new partner. What would that suggest ??

To me it would suggest he had a boat with a bar and a sundeck and didn't mind that she didn't like to do any actual fishing.

 

[ref2018]

To me it would suggest he had a boat with a bar and a sundeck and didn't mind that she didn't like to do any actual fishing.

I'm afraid of heights. What would it suggest if I wanted to pierce my flesh with hooks and be suspended from the ceiling by pulleys with a new partner?

 

[vinsanity0]

I'm afraid of heights. What would it suggest if I wanted to pierce my flesh with hooks and be suspended from the ceiling by pulleys with a new partner?

That you are ready for a spiritual awakening?

 

[ref2018]

That you are ready for a spiritual awakening?

What if my spirit is already awake?

 

[Evie]

What if my spirit is already awake?

Always room for more. Most of us are somnambulistic at best.