Forbidden knowledge

[Harry_Fondue]

Hi,

I'm 43 and have been married for over a decade. We have a family and our relationship has had its troubles - some serious ones - but we still connect, enjoy spending time together, and are working on our issues through counselling.

During fights my wife would say things like, "I have options," and "maybe two people aren't made to be together like this." I didn't see the significance at the time, it just felt like a sling or arrow, but now I do. In a jealous moment, when she was out with her friends, I looked through her texts and found a thread with a man I know that goes back months. The thread includes light sexting, expressions of desire, and details about a meet up where apparently nothing sexual happened.

The man in the thread is asking her to open up our marriage and have sex with him in a polyamorous situation. She expresses a lot of interest, and muses to him about how she will bring it up with me. She hasn't and months have passed, though they have exchanged fairly recent flirty texts.

I've stopped looking. I'm doing everything I can to satisfy her and be a good husband, father, and man. She still hasn't said anything or discussed any kind of an open relationship with me.

I'm worried she's cheating on our marriage, or about to. This is a very surprising side of my wife to me. I openly talk about sex and she's usually pretty mum about the subject.

What the hell should I do? I'm torn and this is eating me up in many ways.

 

[LoveBunny]

Confront her. Calmly, but insist she be honest as to what she has done and/or is planning to do.

Only she can answer your questions.

 

[Evie]

What you do depends what you actually want. A monogamous marriage or an open one

This is some food for thought before you decide.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Harry_Fondue,

I guess my question for you is, do you want a polyamorous marriage? or is this strictly something your wife apparently wants? If she wants poly and you want mono, then you have an incompatibility and may have to consider divorce. If you want poly, then you can bring it up with her, you don't have to wait for her to bring it up with you. Maybe you want poly for you but not for her? or at least, not with this guy with whom she has been flirting? I'm sure you have some jealous/worried feelings about that.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[dingedheart]

Hi,

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I'm 43 and have been married for over a decade. We have a family and our relationship has had its troubles - some serious ones - but we still connect, enjoy spending time together, and are working on our issues through counselling.

How long have you been in counseling?

I’d strongly argue that you’re probably wasting your money, because your wife is having some sort of an affair. She's not an honest broker in fixing the relationship issue.

During fights my wife would say things like, "I have options," and "maybe two people aren't made to be together like this." I didn't see the significance at the time, it just felt like a sling or arrow, but now I do. In a jealous moment, when she was out with her friends, I looked through her texts and found a thread with a man I know that goes back months. The thread includes light sexting, expressions of desire, and details about a meet up where apparently nothing sexual happened.

The man in the thread is asking her to open up our marriage and have sex with him in a polyamorous situation. She expresses a lot of interest, and muses to him about how she will bring it up with me. She hasn't and months have passed, though they have exchanged fairly recent flirty texts.

Are you remotely interested in opening your marriage? Do you think this would ultimately help or hurt your marriage, if it came to fruition?

I've stopped looking. I'm doing everything I can to satisfy her and be a good husband, father, and man. She still hasn't said anything or discussed any kind of an open relationship with me.

I would suggest you not doing the pick-me dance, because you’ll lose. NRE makes it a losing battle.

I'm worried she's cheating on our marriage, or about to. This is a very surprising side of my wife to me. I openly talk about sex and she's usually pretty mum about the subject.

Wire the house, track the car and take the kids away for the weekend. Give her the rope to hang herself.

Or start talking to lawyers and getting your stuff together.

What the hell should I do? I'm torn and this is eating me up in many ways.

Besides doing the stuff listed above, why not confront her in a counseling session?

 

[Sisilisko]

I do believe that if you open the subject with her, you both might get some relief.

Assuming your wife has not been unfaithful until fairly recently (when your relationship has been through some serious trouble), I'd suggest you assume that her secret affair - no matter whether just emotional or also sexual - is an attempt to save your marriage. More often than not, infidelity is a desperate attempt to fullfill a need that would be unbearably painful to forgo - and they're trying hard to do it without leaving the relationship.

In every long-term relationship, there are sore points. Needs that are not met and possibly cannot be met due to insurmountable differences in personality, communication style, erotic type, etc. There are also painful memories and in certain areas, expectations have been broken so many times that one partner does not dare to hope to have their needs met by the other any longer.

Except for the suggestion to talk openly so that the secrecy stops eating both of you from the inside, I don't think there is a very clear path forward. I imagine you have a stretch of perilous misty mountains ahead of you on your path. My suggestion would be to take a little break from asking yourself practical questions about the future of your relationship. Instead, start by finding a northstar direction for yourself: how would you like to behave in a situation like this one if you were the hero you once hoped to become? If a great novelist chose you as the main character of a story, what would be the sources of your strength, courage and wisdom? Who do you want to be, even if fate has it that you will face opposition or that things will not work out as you'd hope for?

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry this is happening.

What the hell should I do? I'm torn. This is eating me up.

I suggest you bring it up in a counseling session.

• Apologize for peeking in her phone and the invasion of her privacy.
• Ask her to update her passwords/passcodes on all her devices, and you do same on yours, so neither one of you will be tempted to peek again.
• Then ask her what's going on with Dude, if she is still thinking about opening the marriage, if this was some kind of text fling she plans to let go of, or what. You can say it how you wrote it. "I'm worried you are cheating on our marriage, or about to. This is a very surprising side of you, for me. I talk openly about sex, but you are usually pretty mum about the subject. I wish you would talk to me plainly."

If you are in couples counseling to work on your marriage issues, lay the issues on the table PLAIN. Actually talk and work them out.

If you are in counseling to figure out how to separate as peacefully as possible under the circumstances -- do that work then.

Either way, do your part of it. Show up in full.

You pay counselors to help you. They can't fully help if some of the puzzle pieces are being kept hidden. If BOTH people are not fully showing up to do their fair share of the work in couples counseling, you might switch to individual counseling and invest in your own self instead. Counseling gets expensive after a point. If one of the parties is just going to blow it off, or avoids taking personal responsibility for how their behaviors/choices affect their partner/the couple? It's ok to quit attending couple counseling and just do your own individual stuff.

If you need an individual session to organize your thoughts before you bring this up in a couples-counseling session, you could do that.

Galagirl

 

[Harry_Fondue]

Confront her. Calmly, but insist she be honest as to what she has done and/or is planning to do.

Only she can answer your questions.

Thank you.

 

[Harry_Fondue]

What you do depends what you actually want. A monogamous marriage or an open one

This is some food for thought before you decide.

Thank you. I will check out the video. I don't really want a poly relationship and I'm not sure that she does either. I just can't imagine finding the time for more than one relationship and it might make me insane to know my wife is out having sex with other people when I'm home doing chores and other things.

 

[Harry_Fondue]

Do you want a polyamorous marriage, or is this strictly something your wife apparently wants? If she wants poly and you want mono, then you have an incompatibility and may have to consider divorce. If you want polyamory, you can bring it up with her, you don't have to wait for her to bring it up with you. Maybe you want poly for yourself, but not for her, or at least, not with this guy with whom she has been flirting. I'm sure you have some jealous/worried feelings about that.

Hi Kevin. Thanks for this. I'm not really sure my wife wants this, or if she is reacting to unfulfilled needs and unhappiness in our marriage. It seems very out of character for her. Sure, the idea of sleeping with other people is exciting, but managing multiple relationships seems like a nearly impossible task with everything else we're juggling. I'm so confused and I don't like knowing she's keeping serious secrets.

 

[Evie]

Thank you. I will check out the video. I don't really want a poly relationship and I'm not sure that she does either. I just can't imagine finding the time for more than one relationship and it might make me insane to know my wife is out having sex with other people when I'm home doing chores and other things.

Out of curiosity, do you and your wife have individual activities outside of the house? I grew up watching my parents have very healthy individual lives and interests. They took turns at going out and doing whatever their things were of an evening. The parent at home only did whatever chores they'd normally do, because the whole thing was, well, normal. Do you guys have that, even without dating others?

 

[Harry_Fondue]

How long have you been in counseling?

I’d strongly argue that you’re probably wasting your money, because your wife is having some sort of an affair. She's not an honest broker in fixing the relationship issue.

Are you remotely interested in opening your marriage? Do you think this would ultimately help or hurt your marriage, if it came to fruition?

I would suggest you not doing the pick-me dance, because you’ll lose. NRE makes it a losing battle.

Wire the house, track the car and take the kids away for the weekend. Give her the rope to hang herself. Or start talking to lawyers and getting your stuff together.

Besides doing the stuff listed above, why not confront her in a counseling session?

We've been in counselling now for a little over a month. It's very new and we haven't really got to the heart of any matter yet. While I like the idea of having sex with different women, I'm content to keep it a fantasy. I'm also willing to forgive, if this was a fleeting thing.

 

[Harry_Fondue]

Out of curiosity, do you and your wife have individual activities outside of the house? I grew up watching my parents have very healthy individual lives and interests. They took turns at going out and doing whatever their things were of an evening. The parent at home only did whatever chores they'd normally do, because the whole thing was, well, normal. Do you guys have that, even without dating others?

Yes, we do. We have friends and activities that we pursue on our own. It has always been healthy and fun, but now I feel like a shitbag, always suspecting the worst.

 

[Harry_Fondue]

I do believe that if you open the subject with her, you both might get some relief.

Assuming your wife has not been unfaithful until fairly recently (when your relationship has been through some serious trouble), I'd suggest you assume that her secret affair - no matter whether just emotional or also sexual - is an attempt to save your marriage. More often than not, infidelity is a desperate attempt to fullfill a need that would be unbearably painful to forgo - and they're trying hard to do it without leaving the relationship.

In every long-term relationship, there are sore points. Needs that are not met and possibly cannot be met due to insurmountable differences in personality, communication style, erotic type, etc. There are also painful memories and in certain areas, expectations have been broken so many times that one partner does not dare to hope to have their needs met by the other any longer.

Except for the suggestion to talk openly so that the secrecy stops eating both of you from the inside, I don't think there is a very clear path forward. I imagine you have a stretch of perilous misty mountains ahead of you on your path. My suggestion would be to take a little break from asking yourself practical questions about the future of your relationship. Instead, start by finding a northstar direction for yourself: how would you like to behave in a situation like this one if you were the hero you once hoped to become? If a great novelist chose you as the main character of a story, what would be the sources of your strength, courage and wisdom? Who do you want to be, even if fate has it that you will face opposition or that things will not work out as you'd hope for?

Thanks. This is good advice and a fine way of thinking about the issue.

 

[dingedheart]

We've been in counselling now for a little over a month. It's very new and we haven't really got to the heart of any matter yet. While I like the idea of having sex with different women, I'm content to keep it a fantasy. I'm also willing to forgive, if this was a fleeting thing.

Whose idea was it to go to marriage counseling? It sounds like it was your hope that the cheating/affair would be admitted, or that the root cause would come out.

The cornerstones of any intimate relationship are trust and honesty (and that goes triple for polyamorous or ENM-type relationships). I highly recommend you read up on this new dynamic to familiarize yourself with all the risks and pitfalls in front of you. Everything comes with a cost. (And again, that probably goes triple for transitioning a 10-yr mono marriage.)

Good luck.

 

[dingedheart]

I suggest you bring it up in a counseling session.

I agree. I’d print out 2 copies of screenshots of all the sexting material, and hand one to her and one to the counselor.

• Apologize for peeking in her phone and the invasion of her privacy.

I’m not sure cheaters have the right to complain on the method in which they’re caught. Do we actually know this is, or was, considered a violation of her privacy?

I think there are bigger fish to fry here, like trust, respect, motivation, or the snowflake that got this avalanche rolling, like going through the motions, etc., etc., etc.

• Ask her to update her passwords/passcodes on all her devices, and you do same on yours, so neither one of you will be tempted to peek again.

This seems 180 degrees from everything I’ve ever heard on rebuilding trust. Total transparency, whether exercised or not, is usually the prescribed course of action.

• Then ask her what's going on with Dude, if she is still thinking about opening the marriage, if this was some kind of text fling she plans to let go of, or what. You can say it how you wrote it. "I'm worried you are cheating on our marriage, or about to. This is a very surprising side of you, for me. I talk openly about sex, but you are usually pretty mum about the subject. I wish you would talk to me plainly."

In order of importance, I might make this #1. From what it sounds like in the facts presented, he’s not worried she’s cheating or about to. She is cheating. He’s just unsure if she’s taken it physical yet.

If you are in couples counseling to work on your marriage issues, lay the issues on the table PLAIN. Actually talk and work them out.

I think a lot of times one spouse is frustrated and interested in fixing the problems or issues, and the other partner, not wanting to look like the bad person, agrees to counseling and goes along half-heartedly for the ride.

Either way, do your part of it. Show up in full.

I believe the OP has done that, and promoted that, otherwise he wouldn’t be here. I think his wife clearly hasn’t, or at least hasn't in some significant area.

You pay counselors to help you. They can't fully help if some of the puzzle pieces are being kept hidden. If BOTH people are not fully showing up to do their fair share of the work in couples counseling, you might switch to individual counseling and invest in your own self.

Yes, which is why I’d force this major issue out into the open.

If one of the parties is just going to blow it off, or avoids taking personal responsibility for how their behaviors/choices affect their partner/the couple, it's okay to quit attending couples counseling and just do your own individual stuff.

Ripping off the Band-aid is one way to see how one takes personal responsibility. The nice thing is, it would be in a controlled environment. I suggest driving separately that day.

 

[Harry_Fondue]

I agree I’d printout 2 copies of all the screen shots of all the sexting material hand one to her and one to the counselor.


I’m not sure cheaters have the right to complain on the method in which they’re caught. Do we actually know this is or was a considered a violation of her privacy? There are bigger fish to fry here, trust, respect, motivation, or the snowflake that got this avalanche rolling...


This seems 180 degrees from everything I’ve ever heard on rebuilding trust. Total transparency, whether exercised or not, is usually the prescribed course of action.


In order of importance, I might make this #1. From the facts presented, it’s not he’s worried she’s cheating or about to. She cheating. He’s just unsure if she’s taken it physical yet.

A lot of times, one spouse is frustrated and interested in fixing the problems, and the other partner, not wanting to look like the bad person, agrees to counseling half heartedly.


I believe the OP has done that, promoted that, otherwise he wouldn’t be here. I think his wife hasn't... in some significant area.

I’d force this major issue into the open.

Ripping off the Band-aid is one way to see how one takes personal responsibility. It would be in a controlled environment. I suggest driving separately that day.

Thanks for the advice and perspective. I am worried that if I come out and say I found out by snooping, she will make that the entire issue and downplay anything that she has done. She will deny there is anything happening currently, and try to shut down the conversation as soon as possible, getting angry and defensive if I ever try to bring it up again. Plus, although I hate saying it, I will then lose my ability to gauge whether there is anything happening. Is it crazy to wait and see if anything happens before presenting the evidence?

 

[Magdlyn]

I think you could schedule an individual appointment with your counselor and confess to the phone snooping and seeing the secret bf's suggestions about polyamory, and your wife's supposed interest. Seek the counselor's advice on how to approach this. I am sure you're not the first married person the counselor has heard confess to phone snooping.

I have no idea what your core problems and disconnects are in your marriage. But I'd consider the text flirtations to be a symptom of your wife's dissatisfaction in your marriage, not the root of it. It's quite common to seek positive attention when one's marriage is mostly just a source of stress. In short, despite the other guy's suggestion of "polyamory," this isn't a polyamory problem, it's a marriage problem. And this guy isn't polyamorous if he's carrying on a casual sex-tinged relationship with your wife behind your back. He's just a garden-variety cheater.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thanks for the advice and perspective. I am worried that if I come out and say I found out by snooping, she will make that the entire issue and downplay anything that she has done.

That is why I suggest you do an individual counseling session first. Get your thoughts together with the therapist. Make plans, if she does X, you will do Y, kinds of things.

And then in the couple session you bring it up. Lead with an apology for the peeking, and request changes in passcodes so no future peeking can happen. Admit it was wrong to peek. You owning it and apologizing first beats her to the punch. Like, what more can you realistically DO? Apologize, promise not to peek again, and passcode changes solves it. Case closed. Next item.

Ask what is going on with the sexting with this Dude. What is the intention behind all that?

If she's going to get stuck on the phone peeking in order to avoid taking responsibility for her sexting, the therapist is there to get it back on track. You can also remain calm and say, "I was wrong to peek. I took personal responsibility for my wrongdoing. Why are you not taking personal responsibility for the sexting?"

Keep the spotlight on her, even if she tries to flip it around, and put it on you, to avoid taking personal responsibility.

State what you actually want. I know it might feel scary, but be upfront and honest. Get down to the bottom line and skip any side arguments. Maybe say something like:

"I think it's best that we get to the bottom line and decide if we are still compatible or not, rather than get bogged down in side stuff that may become moot. I don't want polyamory. Do you want that?"

She will deny there is anything happening currently, and try to shut down the conversation as soon as possible, getting angry and defensive if I ever try to bring it up again.

Is this DARVO stuff? Are you being abused? That may take other approaches. Talk this over individually with your therapist first.

If she does that in session, you can ask the therapist for help.

If she often does it outside of session, you get to tell your therapist you experience this a lot. You get decide if you want to continue with a person who behaves like this, or if you want out.

Plus, although I hate saying it, I will then lose my ability to gauge whether there is anything happening. Is it crazy to wait and see if anything happens before presenting the evidence?

"Wait and see" is a choice. You get to pick how YOU want to handle this.

I don't know why you would "present evidence" though. It's not a trial. YOU get to decide what you will and will not put up with in your relationships. Nobody else has to agree. Nobody else has to like it. Just YOU.

If this sexting thing already crosses lines for you, what are you hoping to achieve by waiting to see if more poor behavior happens?

This is either a healthy relationship for you to be in, or it isn't.

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

You are the one in it. I get the feelings can be really hard. But the actions are straightforward.

• You say nothing and keep tolerating this. You are not free of her poor behaviors.
• You say something and ask for changes.
  • Changes actually happen, and things get better, so you are free of her past poor behaviors. You two stay together.
  • Changes do not happen, and things stay the same/get worse. You break up to be free of her poor behaviors.

I don't know if this helps you any.

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I do sympathize. This sounds tough.

GG

 

[Evie]

Are you guys still fighting?
What's her behaviour like at home, is she present, or checked out and going through the motions of keeping house and participating in your marriage?