I don't know if I want to reconnect with my wife

[astrosneddy]

Hello,

I'm having trouble thinking about touching, holding, kissing or in any way being intimate with my wife. I've been trying to consider if it's an action I'm doing to subconsciously punish her. (I think that's what she thinks it is.) But I am becoming pretty certain that I'm doing so as a result of not feeling any sense of control of my relationship, and that my sex life is being taken away from me, or decided for me. This feels like the only thing I have autonomous control over, and it results in me using it the only way I can.

Background https://polyamory.com/threads/relationship-imbalance-and-partner-insensitivity.155851/

I told her on her way home from her date with her new bf that I didn't want to touch or be touched, and that I'd prefer we could just "be" together. She has respected this, although it took three days and my expressed and blunt reiteration that I don't want her to touch me and to please not. She did not realize I meant it to be for more than the one night after her date.

I've tried to ask her to slow down, or if we could pause our journeys into polyamory while I settled into my new job. This did not happen, and I'm about ready to quit. It's just not working. I'm too unstable and cannot concentrate.

I've been doing a lot of self-discovery and growth, and I'm at the start of a journey, dealing with a late-in-life neurodivergent diagnosis, with a resurfacing of childhood trauma, and the resurfacing bullying, manipulation, physical and mental abuse from past relationships, and being cheated on.

I'm really working hard at it, because I truly believe in polyamory, and have for a long time considered myself to be polyamorous. But essentially, I was more honestly just ENM and open. Despite all her words to the opposite, I feel just taken advantage of. There's a power imbalance between us and I feel that my consent has been coerced and my agency to make decisions had been hindered. Communicating these points has not led to anything except platitudes and her apologies that I feel that way.

I don't want to be acting like a child, or acting in a toxic way. I loath that concept. Despite the fact I know I'm entitled to my feelings, I know this can be approached better. It feels like my needs and suggestions have largely been ignored. I feel like I'm being forced through the steps and stages just so that we've broached them. I just feel like I'm nothing.

I think I want to withhold my affection because I can compartmentalize the relationship better that way. As the mother of my child, I love her entirely, and always will, but as my supposed best friend and favourite person, I feel heartbroken.

The withholding is my only form of self-protection, but I'm not sure what to do still. It's no way to live. We were sexless for a long time. After many failed attempts to talk about it, figure it out or deal with it, I'd just learned to accept the relationship as it was. I believed sex would return. I knew there was more to us than sex. Now it feels like she's brought back sex, realised how much she loves it and is off trying to experience everything she can, without making sure that our foundation is solid.

I haven't felt so consistent an amount of cortisol, and have not been stuck in such a permanent fight-or-flight state as this, in my many years of mental-health issues.

I want to talk to her tonight. But she tends to shut down and not engage with me, which has a tendency to wind me up. I've taken big steps to prevent that. I'm learning non-violent communication methods, learning about how to speak my feelings without accusations, shaming or pointing fingers. This all seems one-sided. Every step of the way, it feels that I'm trying new things to find a path through our concerns, so talking makes her comfortable, but there is no consideration on her part.

The timing had been really bad, because she organised things in such a way that we haven't even really had space to talk. Her sister has come to stay with us for a few days. She's catching up with her, as they haven't seen one another for a long time. It's great to see her too, but this isn't the first time she's hooked up, but then, for one reason or another, it has been days before we could debrief or reconnect.

I listened to Multiamory podcast #186, reconnecting when you don't want to, but it provided no actual help. The response was, do it. I'm finding little help in the community in dealing with these sorts of feelings, where the result didn't seem to just be judging me for not being someone who's already an expert at this sort of thing.

But I'm still asking. There's no one else I can ask-- just a bunch of monogamous people who wouldn't understand anyway.

Edit* thank you all for your responses. They have been incredibly comforting. Just to let you know, we are indeed both in therapy.

Mine has just stopped. My therapist was not the right one for me, I don't think.

My wife's therapist is very encouraging of her polyamory and has been instrumental in her moving back into the lifestyle. We plan on doing couple's counseling, but it's a process to get started and likely won't be until the new year, what with financial stress and things.

I'm also upset that I've painted her in this bad light, because she's a really incredible woman. She's caring and kind and just really the best person I know, and that's why it's so overwhelming to see her almost like a stranger.

I'm sure lots of it is breaking away from codependency, mixed with our attachment styles working against us. I also think there's subconscious anger or hate towards me, as she had a child with me. She never wanted to have a child before I brought it up and said I was willing to leave in pursuit of that, because I would never force her to be a mother if she didn't want to, although I did want to be a parent with her. Now, 3 years later, her sense of identity and her autonomy are the biggest things to her and it seems like amendment to me.

I know it's illogical, but I'm having to do most of my own therapy because my therapist wants me to sit in discomfort. That's great, but I need trauma healing first. I have such a low sense of worth right now that any attempt at mindfulness just has the inner, hateful me laughing at myself for even trying. So, there's lots on me, I know it.

She's not a bad person. I just don't understand why she and this new guy are moving the way they are, why it feels like we're less of a team than ever before, and why it seems so important to her to follow up with him. I know other people's feelings matter, and I am trying hard to humanize him, but she's very uncomfortable sharing details about him.

He has no social media presence, so I can't even look him up and just see that he's a regular man, with kids and a wife, trying to live life, and it's no wonder he's interested in her because she's awesome. Instead, he's a shadow. He earns more money than me, has a more interesting and mysterious life, a stable job. He has nowhere near the mental health issues I do.

His existence makes me a consolation prize, I hate him, I've told her so, I don't even know him, I don't hate him, yes, I do.

She's known him 2 or 3 months to our 16 years, and it was so important that she have sex with him. "It's a big experiment" is kind of her go to, but this isn't so. He's not a lab rat to her, because she cares for him. She's showing loyalty to him already, and I'm feeling like the worst kinds of texting and responses are my only easy to communicate. It's bad modeling from my parents. I can't seem to express to her how I feel, so then the thoughts are, demonstrate it to her so she feels it, then she'll know how she's made you feel. I don't like this idea and I'm trying not to, but it's hard. I feel like she's kind of reassuring me so that I will blow up, so she can leave and be justified because of my behaviour.

I'm just out of ideas. I will look at "poly hell" though, cos it's been mentioned and I have not read it.

 

[TavMac]

Hey there,

I'd like to try and see if I could at least relate. I mean, I feel like I'm relating to a lot of what you wrote, and hopefully talking can help. Let me first give you a rundown of myself. Better yet, I'll just link it, and we'll get to what you want to talk about...

There are a couple of themes going on, from what you've written. The first one was about reconnecting at an intimate level with your wife, and the others (that we'll get to) revolve around your emotional and relationship statuses and how they relate to that lack of intimacy.

First thing, and something I forgot to mention in my blog, is that I did the SAME thing in relationship with Jean. I was scared to have sex and didn't know if it was because of protecting myself in some way, or some sort of retribution. As it'd turn out, I was definitely scared of performance issues with myself. I could get into the details, but they would be boring, and this isn't about me.

I think there are some key aspects here that could help, and that you yourself have already seen. First of which, is that, as you said:

I considered myself polyamorous, but I was honestly just ENM and open.

That could be a major crux of the issue. Polyamory is a whole lot more. And actually, in some ways for the relationship you have with your wife, a whole lot less.

My wife still doesn't want a divorce. (I've offered it many times, but her perspective is, she's doing well with her dating, so why would she want to change anything?) But I eventually mentally divorced her after one of our bad interactions at the time. *That* helped. It sucks when you see on Reddit the rule-of-thumb advice that just simply says, "Say goodbye to your old relationship/marriage/etc. It's all over." But, and I hate to admit this, they were right. It wasn't until I did that bit of mental gymnastics that things REALLY got better. In fact, I didn't even know I'd done it, until one day I was talking to my therapist (THERAPY, can't recommend that enough), and I was like, "Why has this gotten better in the last year?"

How long have you both been practicing polyamory, or, how long has this arrangement been going on? Kevin, our official greeter, who's around here somewhere, once gave a rule of thumb timeline (by no means was he saying it as something absolute) of about three years in terms of getting into a non-relationship-threatening rhythm of polyamory. For me, that timeline is sort of bang-on.

That being said, I'm sorry, but I feel compelled to ask, did you *both* decide to practice a polyamorous relationship? Who broached the topic? Did you do anything to prepare before you started dating outside the relationship? Or, did you both meet and start up with polyamory in mind from the beginning?

So, again, I've not touched on everything you've said, but maybe we can distill this into some things you would want to work on first. And maybe the first thing should be: what type of relationship model do you want? And that's the first part of the conversation you'll then need to have.

I used to think and say a lot of things you've mentioned, about debriefing and reconnecting. But, for me... what I *feel* ... those were things that, while good, and related to ENM, and things people in polyamory **could** agree upon, they were not polyamorous, strictly speaking. That is to say, there are a lot of polyamorous people that don't do those things. They end up taking their relationships as they come. And if they need to have a conversation on what expectations have changed, or if they need to be updated, they then ask for that.

Mac

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry this is happening.

I was more honestly just ENM and open. Despite all her words to the opposite, I feel just taken advantage of. There's a power imbalance between us and I feel my consent has been coerced and my agency to make decisions had been hindered. Communicating these points has not led to anything except for platitudes and her apologies that I feel that way.

It shows in your writing that you have been doing a lot of work. You're more direct, more clear.

So you want more ENM/open-type nonmonogamy. She wants polyamory, like she's dating to find a steady BF or GF. Or does she want both casual-sex hookups and a steady partner?

It feels like my needs and suggestions have largely been ignored. I feel like I'm being forced through the steps and stages just so that we've broached them. I just feel like I'm nothing.

Did you two read poly hell together? Did anything resonate there?

Did you find a couple's counselor?

If she's just "going through the motions," like she's ticking things off a list just to say that she covered it with you, but basically still steamrolling over you or ignoring you, you might have to decide that you don't want this anymore.

I think I want to withhold my affection because I can compartmentalize the relationship better that way. As the mother of my child, I love her entirely, and always will, but as my supposed best friend and favourite person, I feel heartbroken.

It is okay to stop sharing sex with her if you just don't want to do that right now. Your body belongs to you.

I want to talk to her tonight. But she tends to shut down and not engage with me, which has a tendency to wind me up. I've taken big steps to prevent that. I'm learning non-violent communication methods, learning about how to speak my feelings without accusations, shaming or pointing fingers. This all seems one-sided. Every step of the way, it feels that I'm trying new things to find a path through our concerns, so talking makes her comfortable, but there is no consideration on her part.

It's okay for you to withdraw consent and say you don't want an open marriage like THIS. You could suggest seeing a couple's counselor to get your marriage foundations on a better footing in order to attempt non-monogamy in a more stable way.

But if she doesn't want to, if she's basically not going to consider you at all and is just going through the motions of couple's counseling, it's okay to decide you are done. You can decide you don't want to participate in any kind of non-monogamy with her, because, as a non-monogamous partner, she's just a drag.

Next, you can decide what that would mean for your marriage, be it a trial separation, or a divorce, or quitting all non-monogamy attempts and going back to monogamy, with or without each other. Take it one thing at a time.

You are right. This is no way to live and is not sustainable long-term.

Galagirl

 

[dingedheart]

Hello,

I'm having trouble thinking about touching, holding, kissing or in any way being intimate with my wife. I've been trying to consider if it's an action I'm doing to subconsciously punish her. (I think that's what she thinks it is.) But I am becoming pretty certain that I'm doing so as a result of not feeling any sense of control of my relationship, and that my sex life is being taken away from, or decided for me. This feels like the only thing I have autonomous control over, and it results in me using it the only way I can.

I told her on her way home from our date that I didn't want to touch or be touched, and that I'd prefer we could just "be" together.

Who scheduled this date or reconnecting event? Maybe it was too soon? What was her reaction to you saying you didn’t want to touch or be touched by her? Did it start a discussion, or did she not care?

I've tried to ask her to slow down, or if we could pause our journeys into polyamory while I settled into my new job. (This did not happen and I'm about ready to quit. It's just not working. I'm too unstable and cannot concentrate.)

Is the idea to slow things down on your side, to get her attention? From what you’ve written, I don’t see that working. Do you ?

I've been doing a lot of self-discovery and growth, and I'm at the start of a journey, dealing with a late-in-life neurodivergent diagnosis, with a resurfacing of childhood trauma, and the resurfacing bullying, manipulation, physical and mental abuse from past relationships, and being cheated on.

It sounds like a ton of irons in the fire and a ton of work. I applaud your efforts to clear those demons.

I'm really working hard at it, because I truly believe in, and have for a long time considered myself to be polyamorous. But essentially, I was more honestly just ENM and open. Despite all her words to the opposite, I feel just taken advantage of. There's a power imbalance between us and I feel my consent has been coerced and my agency to make decisions had been hindered. Communicating these points has not led to anything except for platitudes and her apologies that I feel that way.

Do you trust her words? Or, regarding important topics and discussions, does it feel like double-talk or sales pitch?

I don't want to be acting like a child, or acting in a toxic way. I loath that concept. Despite the fact I know I'm entitled to my feelings, I know this can be approached better. It feels like my needs and suggestions have largely been ignored. I feel like I'm being forced through the steps and stages just so that we've broached them. I just feel like I'm nothing.

What steps and stages are you being pushed through?

I think I want to withhold my affection because I can compartmentalize the relationship better that way. As the mother of my child, I love her entirely, and always will, but as my supposed best friend and favourite person, I feel heartbroken.

This makes total sense to me. Have you expressed this exact point to her?

The withholding is my only form of self protection, but I'm not sure what to do still. It's no way to live. We were sexless for a long time. After many failed attempts to talk about it, figure it out or deal with it, I'd just learned to accept the relationship as it was. I believed sex would return. I knew there was more to us than sex. Now it feels like she's brought back sex, realised how much she loves it and is off trying to experience everything she can, without making sure that our foundation is solid.

In every paragraph you've written about your situation, it sounds like your wife’s sex drive and or desire to date trump anything happening in your life, or risks to your union with her. It's like: "Full speed ahead! If he makes it, great. If he doesn’t, too bad. He’ll be in the corner jerking off."

I haven't felt so consistent an amount of cortisol, and have not been stuck in such a permanent fight-or-flight state as this, in my many years of mental health issues.

I want to talk to her tonight. But she tends to shut down and not engage with me, which has a tendency to wind me up. I've taken big steps to prevent that. I'm learning non-violent communication methods, learning about how to speak my feelings without accusations, shaming or pointing fingers. This all seems one-sided. Every step of the way, it feels that I'm trying new things to find a path through our concerns, so talking makes her comfortable, but there is no consideration on her part.

Have you done couple's counseling?

The timing had been really bad, because she organised things in such a way that we haven't even really had space to talk. Her sister has come to stay with us for a few days. She's catching up with her, as they haven't seen one another for a long time. It's great to see her too, but this isn't the first time she's hooked up, but then, for one reason or another, it has been days before we could debrief or reconnect.

Maybe write your debrief out in an outline and give it to her. Don’t bother with a face-to-face right away. "Here’s the stuff I’ve been wanting to say." Then walk off. Go to work or whatever.

I listened to multiamory podcast (186, reconnecting when you don't want to) but it provided no actual help. The response was, do it. I'm finding little help in the community in dealing with these sorts of feelings, where the result didn't seem to just be judging me for not being someone who's already an expert at this sort of thing.

I disagree. Don’t do anything you don’t want to because of expectations.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi astrosneddy,

There is a big imbalance in your relationship with your wife. You are doing all kinds of things to learn to do better, and shore up the relationship. She is just continuing to do things as she always has, or according to what she wants without taking you into consideration. It sounds like you guys have been seeing therapists? A marriage counselor would be a really good idea right now -- assuming your wife would be willing to work with the counselor. I take it that's what's taking so long, is getting a marriage counselor set up.

The saying I've always heard is, "First year forming, second year storming, third year norming." I don't know whether this applies to you. Which year are you in? first year, second year, third year, or beyond? Your situation could take a long time to heal, or maybe it will never heal. How long are you willing to wait? five years? ten? fifty? something to think about.

Your situation is a super bad one, that's for sure.
Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[astrosneddy]

Hi astrosneddy,

There is a big imbalance in your relationship with your wife. You are doing all kinds of things to learn to do better, and shore up the relationship. She is just continuing to do things as she always has, or according to what she wants without taking you into consideration. It sounds like you guys have been seeing therapists? A marriage counselor would be a really good idea right now -- assuming your wife would be willing to work with the counselor. I take it that's what's taking so long, is getting a marriage counselor set up.

The saying I've always heard is, "First year forming, second year storming, third year norming." I don't know whether this applies to you. Which year are you in? first year, second year, third year, or beyond? Your situation could take a long time to heal, or maybe it will never heal. How long are you willing to wait? five years? ten? fifty? something to think about.

Your situation is a super bad one, that's for sure.
Sympathetically,
Kevin T

Technically, it's best to consider it first year. It's the first real venture into polyamory where she has been actually, actively pursuing it. She thinks she's considering me. She's not trying to hurt me, or, at least her words say that, but her actions have never been aligned with her words before. I have got the ability to be childish and everything. I have all those nasty traits from parents with bad communication and things. I'm not perfect at all. But I really am currently trying to not lean into them. I mean, I think about all the mean things I could say, but I really haven't, at all. But it feels like I'm being treated like I am doing and saying all the mean things.

 

[kdt26417]

Yeah, you have a really bad situation on your hands. I hear you say that she is not a bad person, that she is not doing this on purpose. I think maybe she is totally immersed in NRE with the new guy, and it is simply blinding her to you and to what she has with you.

 

[astrosneddy]

Who scheduled this date or reconnecting event? Maybe it was too soon? What was her reaction to you saying you didn’t want to touch or be touched by her? Did it start a discussion, or did she not care ?

She scheduled the date with the guy to have sex. It got pushed back once already because I had a dissociative event. She went to see friends that same night and got too drunk and missed the last train home. So she cancelled her date with him because she knew she'd broken my trust. That was meant to be November 12, and it happened December 10. She essentially respected my wishes, but didn't really given me much to gauge her reaction by. I told her I was not trying to punish her, because I felt like she took it that way initially. The only discussion we've started, so far, was about how to get my strength when I'm also with my headphones on, without touching me.

Is the idea to slow things down on your side to get her attention? From what you’ve written I don’t see that working. Do you ?

The idea, as I saw it, was to give me a chance to adapt and change to different things at different prioritised times. For our family, it was very important that I get down with this job, not that I can concentrate there. I just Google his name all day, or look up poly articles and things.

It sounds like a ton of irons in the fire and a ton of work. I applaud your efforts to clear those demons.

Thanks. It all feels in vain at the moment, but I'm determined.

Do you trust her words? Or, regarding important topics and discussions, does it feel like double-talk or a sales pitch?

I've never had to not trust her before; it never felt like I couldn't. I feel like she thinks she's being honest, but I think she's lying to herself and me as a result. It's hard to trust her words. Most of her apologies feel false: "I'm sorry you're having a hard time with this" (no accountability). And maybe most of the time it's all my feelings to deal with. But I'm being as clear as I can about them, and she's still choosing to do things, knowing they will hurt me. That's just not the person I know.

What steps and stages are you being pushed through?

Having sex with the guy so quickly. She's even kind of said that she wants to get it over with. But it's not that simple. It's not just the act. I checked. It's the guy, a guy she barely knows, not feeling more comfortable if she hooked up with a random.

This makes total sense to me. Have you expressed this exact point to her?

I don't know. I might have tried, but I've been expressing myself rather poorly for a while. I'm not sure what she's heard and hasn't heard.

In every paragraph you write about your situation, it sounds like your wife’s sex drive and or desire to date trumps anything happening in your life, or risks to your union with her, like: "Full speed ahead! If he makes it, great. If he doesn’t, too bad. He’ll be in the corner jerking off."

I feel that a little, and it's terrifying. In the past, it felt like we were side by side, hand in hand, even if we let go of our hands to go touch and play with others. Now it feels like I'm cast off.

Have you done couple's counseling?

Not yet, not for this. We plan to. I don't have lots of hope. I mean, I do and I don't. As much as I believe in therapy, I've never had good experiences or good therapists.

Maybe write your debrief out in an outline and give it to her. Don’t bother with a face-to-face right away. "Here’s the stuff I’ve been wanting to say." Then walk off. Go to work or whatever.

I've been trying to do this. I also wrote out a set of boundaries. I realised I've never had any. I'm hoping to discuss them with her tonight. It's the first night we have had alone since things went down.

I disagree. Don’t do anything you don’t want because of expectations.

Thank you.

 

[dingedheart]

She scheduled the date with the guy to have sex. It got pushed back once already because I had a dissociative event. She went to see friends that same night and got too drunk and missed the last train home. So she cancelled her date with him because she knew she'd broken my trust. That was meant to be November 12, and it happened December 10. She essentially respected my wishes, but not had not really given me much to gauge her reaction by. I told her I'm not trying to punish her, because I feel like she took it that way initially. The only discussion we've started, so far, was about how to get my strength when I'm also with my headphones on, without touching me.

So at the moment, she doesn’t much care, or is okay with your request to not touch or be touched? There was no bad reaction or put down directed at you for making that request?

The idea, as I saw it, was to give me a chance to adapt and change to different things at different prioritised times. For our family, it was very important that I get down with this job, not that I can concentrate there. I just Google his name all day, or look up poly articles and things.

How much detangling have you done? Is it possible to pack a bag and disappear for a while, or move into a spare bedroom? Physically take some control back?

Thanks. It all feels in vain at the moment, but I'm determined.

I'm sure it feels harder and there’s less motivation, but that’s all for you.

I've never had to not trust her before; it never felt like I couldn't. I feel like she thinks she's being honest, but I think she's lying to herself and me as a result. It's hard to trust her words. Most of her apologies feel false: "I'm sorry you're having a hard time with this" (no accountability), and maybe most of the time it's all my feelings to deal with. But I'm being as clear as I can about them, and she's still choosing to do things, knowing they will hurt me. That's just not who I know.

Those AREN'T true apologies. That’s either being clever or sloppy with words. “Sorry the truth hurts. Sorry you took that as a personal attack.“

She’s doing things she knows will hurt you because the thrill or prize for her is so great, or she doesn’t care the pain she causes you.

Having sex with the guy so quickly. She's even kind of said that she wants to get it over with. But it's not that simple. It's not just the act. I checked. It's the guy. A guy she barely knows, not feeling more comfortable if she hooked up with a random.

Are there some sort of milestone markers to this event? It sounds like a lot of love and care and romance is going on into this. How well do we trust her and this rando on safe sex practices? Is this guy going to give a fuck about such matters?

I don't know. I might have tried, but I've been expressing myself rather poorly for a while. I'm not sure what she's heard and hasn't heard.

I think writing things out and having it present when discussing so it can be checked off or crossed off, knowing it was covered.

I feel that a little, and it's terrifying. In the past, it felt like we were side by side, hand in hand, even if we let go of our hands to go touch and play with others. Now it feels like I'm cast off.

You probably feel like this is something you need to fix, but it’s not. This ball is in her court. The harder you try, the worse this will get.

Not yet, not for this. We plan to. I don't have lots of hope. I mean, I do and I don't. As much as I believe in therapy, I've never had good experiences or good therapists.

My only thought for counseling is she won’t be able to shut down and hide and ignore what you’re saying.

I've been trying to do this. I also wrote out a set of boundaries. I realised I've never had any. I'm hoping to discuss them with her tonight. It's the first night we have alone since things went down.

How did it go?

 

[astrosneddy]

I'm sorry this is happening. It shows in your writing that you have been doing a lot of work. You're more direct, more clear. You want more ENM/open-type nonmonogamy. She wants polyamory, like she's dating to find a steady BF or GF. Or does she want both casual-sex hookups and a steady partner?

She wants all of that. I kind of do too, but not at the expense of one another, or at the distress, or upset to her feelings. As insecure and childish as it sounds, I really wish she could be patient enough to wait for me to "catch up" with her in regards to meeting someone and being ready to explore things. I know that is selfish, rife with insecurity and privilege and probably pretty toxic, but it's just that we were a team in this together before... always. Now I feel tossed aside in her pursuit of all things. I feel like I trod so carefully when she was uncomfortable.

Did you two read poly hell together? Did anything resonate there?

I started it today and have not finished it yet. She read it on the train today.

Did you find a couple's counselor?

If she's just "going through the motions," like she's ticking things off a list just to say that she covered it with you, but basically still steamrolling over you or ignoring you, you might have to decide that you don't want this anymore.

I am absolutely unable to see a world without her and not be terrified to the very core of myself.

It is okay to stop sharing sex with her if you just don't want to do that right now. Your body belongs to you.

It made me feel really valued to see someone say this. It is what I thought and believed, but my imposter syndrome or negative self-talk shouts at me that I am acting up and playing games because I am an emotional weak little child and not an adult. Thank you.

It's okay for you to withdraw consent and say you don't want an open marriage like THIS. You could suggest seeing a couple's counselor to get your marriage foundations on a better footing in order to attempt non-monogamy in a more stable way.

I really want this, but I do not think she is willing to wait, and/or she does not think the guy would be willing to wait for her. I know one reason for this is that she presented us as more experienced in poly than we are, misappropriating the concepts of our ENM time and poly as interchangeable experiences. I believe she is pretty embarrassed to have to explain or address that whatever she and he have already is causing big problems for her relationships with me. I don't know for sure. She did say as much around the time she called off their first meetup.

 

[Magdlyn]

[I am] insecure and childish...

I am absolutely unable to see a world without her and not be terrified to the very core of myself...

My imposter syndrome or negative self-talk shouts at me that I am acting up and playing games because I am an emotional weak little child and not an adult.

Well, here are the actual problems. It's not a polyamorous problem, per se. It's not the problem of your wife dating. It's coming from deep within you.

 

[GalaGirl]

You have your new job and your recent dx to deal with. If this open marriage thing is going to affect your well-being and your coping, I don't think it's terrible to tell her NO, you don't want any at this time. If you are spending your time at work just Googling her bf, that's not a great way to start your new job.

If you ARE going to also pile "open marriage" on top of everything else, only do it if you line up a counselor for yourself, or for you both as a couple, so you have extra support. Otherwise, it sounds hard.

Are you trying to do too many new things at once? This is not being kind to yourself. Are you not used to treating yourself kindly?

I am absolutely unable to see a world without her and not be terrified to the very core of myself.

I could be wrong. But I think because you so fear a breakup and can't see yourself standing on your own two feet, you will keep tolerating poor behavior, or doing poor behaviors yourself, or putting up with too much, until you HAVE to stand on your own two feet and discover you can cope.

Depending on how this is playing out in real life, she might be feeling suffocated and tired of "carrying" you so much. On the flip side, maybe she's just doing whatever she wants, and not considering you, or is NRE-drunk, or both.

I really wish she could be patient enough to wait for me to "catch up" with her in regards to meeting someone and being ready to explore things.

What does that actually mean: you are both free to date other people, or she can't have a date unless you have a date?

it is just that we were a team in this together before... always. Now I feel tossed aside in her pursuit of all things.

Her dating X and you dating Y -- what does "being a team in this" actually mean to you?

It made me feel really valued to see someone say this. It is what I thought and believed, but my imposter syndrome or negative self-talk shouts at me that I am acting up and playing games because I am an emotional weak little child and not an adult.

Again, if you don't feel like sharing sex right now, Don't. Your body belongs to you.

You will have to work on overcoming your negative self-talk. Being your own bully is not healthy and it's going to cloud everything else you try to do.

What do you need to do to CHANGE YOUR MIND and decide you are "adult enough" and start to treat yourself kindly?

Are adults not allowed to have emotions? Are adults who have emotions not really adults? Are they immature children to you?

I really want this, but I do not think she is willing to wait, or she does not think the guy will be willing to wait for her. I know one reason for this is she presented us as more experienced in poly than we are, misappropriating the concepts of our ENM time and poly as interchangeable experiences. I believe she is pretty embarrassed to have to explain or address that whatever she and he have is causing big problems for her relationships with me.

I think all of that could be her problem/responsibility to solve. If she was lying to the guy about her experience, it's on her to clean it up.

If she's having problems with you because she's lying to other partners, not being considerate of you, behaving like a loose canon, to the point where you don't want to do nonmonogamy with her, that's also on her to clean up.

Your consent belongs to you. You decide what you will and will not participate in. If her style of nonmonogamy is too wackadoo, you can opt out.

If you are basically allowing yourself to be dragged along behind her, doing some kind of wonky nonmonogamy because you are scared to tell her, "No, not like this," or too scared to break up and live a life without her, I could see why this whole thing feels like "Aaaahhh!" to you, like you're between a rock and hard place.

I know I sound like a broken record, but you could talk to a therapist, either on your own or in for both of you. Maybe you want to look at CODA meetings if there's any codependency going on here.

At this point in time, what would you like to have happen? What are you willing to do/change?

I wonder if a trial separation would let you address your new dx, your new job, give you some time and space to be CALM, help you learn to be okay on your own two feet, while in couple's counseling sessions, you and she work on your foundations. You date, or don't date, as you please; she dates, or doesn't date, as she pleases; and then you get to see what's what.

But I am becoming pretty certain that I'm doing so as a result of not feeling any sense of control of my relationship, and that my sex life is being taken away from me, or decided for me. This feels like the only thing I have autonomous control over, and it results in me using it the only way I can.

Sex and affection are NOT the only things you have control over. You have control over where you live, and whether or not you stay in this relationship.

 

[astrosneddy]

Well, here are the actual problems. It's not a polyamorous problem, per se. It's not the problem of your wife dating. It's coming from deep within you.

Yes, this is part of the work I'm doing on myself and things. I've spent most of my life with an unrecognized core belief that I'm less than everybody, due to how I was raised. So the rare circumstances/relationships where that isn't something that I feel, is something I feel I can't lose.

 

[kdt26417]

Do you feel that your relationship with your wife is a healthy relationship?

 

[astrosneddy]

Do you feel that your relationship with your wife is a healthy relationship?

I think it has been, I think it's capable of being again, and capable of being healthy, in polyamory. But no not currently

 

[kdt26417]

What needs to happen, in order for it to become healthy again (in poly)?

 

[astrosneddy]

What needs to happen, in order for it to become healthy again (in poly)?

I imagine it's all the things I've read about like, relationships agreement, boundaries that are respected and honoured and a sense that were both actively trying to manage our relationship and any others we may have, with an aim to being sensitive and thoughtful to all those involved, and not just in a self-serving way.

I mean, I don't know, exactly.

Consent matters in poly, right? I mean, I'm not saying that people need one another's permission or blessing etc., but everything I understand said that free and acting consent from all parties involved. So, consent matters to me, in that sense. Health looks like uncoerced consent and balance. I guess I haven't really thought about it like this before, though. Healthy, in our relationship, it's always something I've obviously felt before, but not ever qualified in this way, so I'm not even sure. What do you think of what I've said, off the top of my head?

 

[kdt26417]

I think you have a pretty clear idea of what needs to be done. Yes, I think consent is the most important thing in poly, and communication is the second-most important thing. The other things you mentioned (relationship agreements, boundaries, etc.) are actually subsets of consent. We try to conduct ourselves in a way that honors and considers everyone else in our relationship circle. Your description of a healthy relationship is actually straight on point, and could be applied to relationships in general.

Note that the things you have stated require a team effort. It takes a team effort to arrive at mutual consent, and communication takes a team effort, as well. What I mean is, you can't carry the whole load. Your wife has to be willing to do her share, with the mutual objective of arriving at a healthy marriage (relationship). And you can't force her to do that; it has to be voluntary. As matters now stand, I can't tell if she even sees the current state of the marriage as unhealthy. Maybe she thinks nothing needs to change.

 

[astrosneddy]

I think you have a pretty clear idea of what needs to be done. Yes, I think consent is the most important thing in poly, and communication is the second-most important thing. The other things you mentioned (relationship agreements, boundaries, etc.) are actually subsets of consent. We try to conduct ourselves in a way that honors and considers everyone else in our relationship circle. Your description of a healthy relationship is actually straight on point, and could be applied to relationships in general.

Note that the things you have stated require a team effort. It takes a team effort to arrive at mutual consent, and communication takes a team effort, as well. What I mean is, you can't carry the whole load. Your wife has to be willing to do her share, with the mutual objective of arriving at a healthy marriage (relationship). And you can't force her to do that, it has to be voluntary. As matters now stand, I can't tell if she even sees the current state of the marriage as unhealthy. Maybe she thinks nothing needs to change.

I don't think she sees the same need to change as I do. As humans, we both have our own perspectives and it's hard for her to validate some of mine. It seems she can only hear them, and disagree. That's still something, but it's not what I'm doing and it's not what I need.

A good example is how we just spoke last night about the date. She just went on about the relationship she's forged with this guy. I've had to read a lot and it's because of a lack of self esteem and confidence in these areas, and wanting to make her happy more than myself. So I told her that I didn't consent to her going on that date and sleeping with the guy, or forgetting our relationship. I understand I've given her reason to think otherwise, because I'm actively trying to support it and find out what she wants. But in no uncertain terms, on many occasions, I said, "I don't feel like I can say no," as she approached me to advise/inform me of what's going on or what she wants to do.

I didn't realise it, but last few days of reading pointed out that my consent has been given under pressure or coercion. She's not actively coercing me, but I've not been in a position where I feel I have full agency and transparency, and the space to actually feely give my consent, or not.

Based on my boundaries and what I understand English non-monogamy to be, that puts this action in unethical non-monogamy. She seems (understandably) unhappy. That is how I see she thinks and that is not what she thought she was doing. But she had only invalidated my view. The whole time I was explaining my view, though, I was making room for hers, telling her, I don't think this shows you intended this or did it maliciously. But I was always clear that she's either implicitly or explicitly made me believe that this open thing marriage is happening, regardless.

She feels like I've been policing her. I understand how distressing that can be. At times, it's so hard, with language and mood and everything, to make her feel safe and secure, even though I do not. But what I've been trying to do is to say, "This isn't what I know poly to be; this isn't how I understand poly works, etc.," trying to help us steer into the right tracks. When I said something last night about how I'm twisting, my consent has been unclear and undefined and that I'm going to put it closely in place and stand by it, so I know neither of us are misinformed.

She just began latching onto this: that I'm going to veto the guy. I hate him because of how she made this whole thing feel and because of all my insecurities. But honestly, I'm trying really hard to consider him, as he isn't involved in these discussions.

I'm not out to punish her, but I didn't have any of the same consideration in the forming of this relationship. It's so clear that it's significantly important to her to get with this guy. The thing is, they aren't even that serious. He's married with kids. He's not looking to live with her or anything. But she's giving it so much significance and weight, disproportional to our relationship or to anything I know she's read or followed (remodeled love, etc.) so I find her inflexibility distressing. I feel like I need to come 2/3s and she will only come 1/3 in compromise.

Everything ends up favouring her. I mean, she's gotten EVERYTHING she wanted, except for it working smoothly and being easy and not emotionally laborious. I'm so uncertain. I've been unsure where I do and don't have the right to express myself or stand up for myself. And now that I'm learning, I feel like I'm still being pressured to put my consent and support in places I'm not entirely comfortable. I fear losing her if I do. Despite all these issues, she's genuinely worth it to me.

Can I get your opinion though, going back to consent? What is it if, in poly, one person's consent (not permission) isn't given, but the new relationship is preceded with, regardless? I mean, consent is respect, yeah? I mean, as humans, we can do whatever the hell we want. Consent isn't permission. She didn't need my consent to see this guy, because it's her life and the relationships she wants are her right. So if she and I have a relationship and mutual love and are decent human beings, then what is it to act without that consent? Just unethical or (poly) cheating, or what?

I don't want to accuse. I don't understand what's happening to me/around me.

All this is making it really hard for me to meet people, too. I really want to fall deep into NRE and meet wonderful people and enjoy myself, but I cannot. I don't have the space or energy to devote to the things going on in my life right now. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to leave my job. (This is terrifying. I think she takes as a punishment.) I can't keep going there, fighting constant flight-or-fight anxiety, not able to pay attention, etc.

I'm not about to meet someone new, because I can't even pay attention in chat, asking a million times what they like to do and things. And it all just makes me feel more alone. The very idea to her of sacrificing any of the things she wants, in order to help us (which I have not asked) seems unconscionable to her and a hard boundary she will not cross. I can accept that, except I can't deal with all the hypocrisy from the past. Yes, you should not have to add "I shouldn't have been asked to back then," and I'm not, not that it wouldn't be unjustified if I asked (which I'm still not) and it's hypocritical, regardless of it being right or wrong.

 

[Bobbi]

So if she and I have a relationship and mutual love and are decent human beings, than what is it to act without that consent? Just unethical or (poly) cheating, or what,?

If you aren’t consenting to her having relationships with others, and she does it anyway, I would see that as a betrayal, i.e., cheating. If one party wants to be poly, and the other wants to be monogamous, one of you either gives in and accepts what they don’t want, or the relationship ends, because you fundamentally want different things.