Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc.: Merged Threads, General Discussion

Thanks for asking about Leo, Flamekat. Sorry to say that the concerns you mentioned play no part in it for me. I am completely fulfilled and maybe even overfilled in those areas. The only concern I have is my loss of intimate connection towards RP, not the loss of anything from her.
 
I had a thought about jealousy and the times when I have felt it. I have noticed that sometimes I feel dismay and desperate that someone has something I don't and I want it so bad that it hurts. Jealousy, right? Other times though, I display the same reaction, but it is more of a gut reaction. I don't want something, but my gut is telling me something isn't right. This isn't jealousy, but in poly we quite often refer to it as such. Maybe looking at it as a gut reaction is a different way of thinking of it. It could be that the person isn't a good fit (for my gut), or that the situation isn't right (for my gut), or that I am struggling with other issues, or that I missed some information because it wasn't given to me, or it was misplaced in the commotion. All this is not jealousy, to me. Why do we call it so in poly?

Flamecat, I appreciate your attempts to figure Mono out. I love that you are interested rather than judgmental. The approach is refreshing and welcome, very helpful. I wanted to just add that I have actually known Leo just as long as Mono, actually a few weeks longer. Because of circumstances I didn't get together with him. We became friends instead. (His wife a friend of PN's. We didn't put that together for a couple of months, actually! We both had new friends and then realized the two were married to each other.)

Because I had started something with Mono and it was all very intense and NREish, I didn't pursue anything with Leo. Instead we moved slowly into loving one another, each others partners and kids. Spent time all together and then jokingly started having weekly non-sexual dates. We called it non-sexual wife swapping for a bit, as PN dated his wife. It worked for us. PN and the wife didn't progress in the love/intimate way. I did with Leo.

In order to understand Mono, one would have to be here, I think. He is very monogamous. What can I say? Monogamous, mainstream and conservative. What the hell I am doing with him, I don't know, as I am so not. Our values are vastly different, and our goals are, too. He has no desire to change who he is for anyone and neither do I. End of story. I have no idea where this will lead.

He is not jealous. He is just himself. Perhaps it's his gut, which is what I have indicated above for myself also, in times when PN has dated people I just didn't have a good feeling about.

Of course this leads into whose right it is to project their gut feelings on others. I get that too, and all I can say is that no news is good news right now. We're working steadily forward, talking, going inward and checking everything out, bit by bit.
 
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MonoVCPHG said:
The concerns you mentioned play no part in it for me. I am completely fulfilled and maybe even overfilled in those areas. The only concern I have is my loss of intimate connection towards RP, not the loss of anything from her.
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Hmm... I still think my point is valid, as there is a loss involved that is directly correlated to the physical intimacy RP shares with someone else.

I couldn't care less whether that boundary is 'right' or 'wrong.' The boundary exists. My goal is to understand why it exists, because without that understanding it will always be (for me in my situation and possibly RP's) a struggle to accept and stay in line with that boundary. For myself, it is the simple issue of, once I understand something, I can then make a decision myself based on full knowledge, rather than working on blind faith that I am being restricted by someone else for a good reason. It is is a control thing from my side. If I am not going to do something I want to do, out of respect for someone else, I need to understand why. The depth of understanding I require directly correlates to the depth of need/connection I am being restricted from.
*badly worded*

RP, I understand what you are saying. I simply wish to also point out that while Leo may have been known longer, the depth of the relationship, and the addition of physical intimacy to it, is what is 'newer,' if you will.

I very much appreciate that you both appreciate that I am curious and trying to understand something that has applications and implications for my own situation. Not trying to put you guys on the spot at all; certainly not trying to interfere. I will let the matter drop as I am sensing you guys need some space again on this. Good luck. I hope I haven't stirred the pot at all. I apologise for using your current issue as an example.
 
FlameKat said:
I still think my point is valid, as there is a loss involved that is directly correlated to the physical intimacy RP shares with someone else.
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You are truly a respectful and caring person, Flamekat. If I told you the idea/image of Redpepper with another man besides PN simply flips a switch within me, would that make any sense? There are other factors, which are not of real importance to this forum, as they are external and things that I have already discussed. But the core of the issue is how the stream of my sexual energy simply shuts off. I find it hard to explain in more depth, because it is automatic, and not something I fully understand. It's like looking at something that has a primal switch, like wanting to protect a child you see being abused. You don't think. Your instincts just kick in and you feel something.

It's not disgust in seeing her with another man. We've had threesomes, so the whole "OMG another penis was in her mouth!" thing isn't much of a factor. Although the thought of another man kissing her or her touching them is an immediate turn off, not in the "holy shit that's gross" sort of way, but in the flipping of a switch sort of way. One second I want her, the next I don't. It's weird, I know.

In those moments I revel in our friendship, but don't feel intimate desire at all. My intimate connection with her simply ceases to be, but my appreciation of her friendship blooms. As I have mentioned numerous times, if I am not intimately connected to someone I can barely get it up. I would have a better chance getting it up with a complete stranger, because I would not see them as a person I care about, but as someone just to masturbate inside of. Frankly, I get off better alone than if I am with someone I don't love.

I will always love Redpepper, that's for sure. How that love is expressed throughout the years may or may not change. We're family for the long haul. regardless.

Redpepper also touched on some very real and yet basic things. We desire different things out of relationships. She seeks a greater openness that transcends gender. I do not. We will carry on, and see what happens. Who knows what will happen? But we'll keep you informed.

Thanks for all your thought-provoking questions, Flamekat. You're right, sometimes we need a break from repeatedly going over the same things. I see the constant questioning of my boundaries as a quest to change who I am, wrapped up in words like growth and moving forward. (Massive trigger to someone who doesn't see having an open relationship as a sign of personal growth. Blasphemy, I know.) I am working on not allowing questions to trigger me, and the way you ask seems genuine and without malice. Thanks again.
 
Mono, picture a very small woman (also with red hair, jumping on the spot, kicking the dirt. "Gosh darn it! There goes all my hopes of understanding this phenomenon!" LOL Ah well, back to the drawing board.

Your description sounds similar, not the same, but similar to what WW describes. I remain hopeful that one day he will be able to stretch that boundary.

Thank you very much for making the effort to put that into words, particularly for clarifying that there is no disgust factor there. I am not sure if that is a factor for WW. I do hope not. Although disgust is something that might be worked on better than a switch.
 
FlameKat said:
Disgust is something that might be worked on better than a switch.
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If only it were that easy! I've put most of the main threads that deal with my relationship on my profile page. There are some that really go into more depth about how I work and my boundaries. I figured I would put them there, as most of the boundary questions are answered within them.

Small women with red hair.... Meeeeowww!
 
The reason I posted my questions on Friday was the natural reaction to people who see jealousy as the root cause behind most discomfort, more or less the default negative emotion. This got me thinking about the concept of negative emotions. Right now I can't think of another emotion, sadness, guilt, anger, that get the same dismissive response that jealousy gets. For women, it's, "Is it your period?" For men, it's their egos. For small children, it's hunger or lack of sleep. For the elderly, it's diminished mental ability.

From very early we have all heard, "Oh, you're just jealous," and that may be true more, often than not. However there maybe more complex things are going on here, in terms of poly-type relationships.

I don't think its possible for humans to have an emotion that was made up from our experiences. If that were possible, the list would become endless. When I ask how much is learned, I now think we must have baseline emotions that are shaped by childhood and other experiences. Just thinking of the images of those huge orphanages in China or Russia or wherever that have 100 infants and three or 4 adults to care for them. Those children are said to have numerous emotional and psychological problems.

Mono, I have to agree with your early statements about children, and I'll go a step further in regards to animals. I know for a fact if I start wrestling with a kid, the dogs will want in on the action. Also, back when wife and I cuddled up, our one dog had to try to get in on it, as well. I'm sure other dog owners and perhaps cat owners have had similar reactions. I don't know anything about the emotions of animals, so I don't know if that is what I'm seeing or not. Next time I'm in the company of a vet I hope I remember to ask.

If you look at other emotions, you can see the purpose. Sadness, contrast of being happy. Sadness feels bad; strive for happiness. Without sadness we never know how good happiness and joy feel. Guilt, same thing. Guilt feels bad, so the behavior which caused the guilt should be avoided.

But jealousy is not as easy. Or is it?
 
Floodgates open... what to do?

I'm not going to say that I've never exhibited jealousy in our relationship prior to my partner's decision to change things. I have had issues with a couple of her exes that I'm pretty sure we *still* haven't resolved.

But now that things have changed... I don't know. I never was bothered with her hanging out with other women before. Now I get all worked up and paranoid over situations that didn't bother me previously. I guess that's a natural part of things. Is talking those feelings out with her the thing to do? Should I talk with someone else? It's not easy to find someone in RL who can empathize, honestly. Folks don't understand nonmonogamy. They don't understand when you are trying to deal with jealousy and not just "banning" certain types of behaviors of your partner.

When I talk about my issues with jealousy it seems to be very upsetting for my partner. I don't want to be passive-aggressive either, though, and I know myself well enough to know that when I don't talk directly about emotions, concerns, and pain that I'm feeling it will come out as passive-aggression. (I am a southern lady. We're the world leaders in passive aggressive love war, after all.)

Meh. I want to cry. I feel so stupid.
 
Hey Greeneyes. Do you actually have green eyes, or do you see yourself as jealous all the time? Kidding.

I can understand wanting to cry, but I think you should never feel stupid for having these feelings. Give yourself a little break. This stuff seems very hard for a lot of people. I put myself at the top of the "don't get it" list. However, at this moment I don't feel stupid. Maybe I should, but I don't yet. Redpepper mentioned the idea of " gut feelings." Maybe we should all listen and be guided by that principle a little more.

Good luck,
D
 
dingedheart said:
Hey Greeneyes. Do you actually have green eyes or do you see yourself as jealous all the time?
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Wellll.... the handle is a bit of a double entendre. Just trying to be as honest about myself as I can be anonymously. ;)

We had a very long talk today about things. I don't know exactly where we are headed from here. But we did discuss possible unfixable gaps in compatibility. I do have a better idea of where things are, so there's that. At this point I don't want to stop being with my partner, and I don't know for sure if I want to "open myself up," either.

I am not philosophically or ideologically against non-monogamy; I really don't think that I am "hard-wired" in a certain way. I just don't know if I want to wipe the software, or install new software, or what. I actually "get" non-monogamy in an intellectual sense. It's the visual clues, the fears, the pre-emptive "missing" of regular and mundane things that I am worried will go away. Tonight she was making popcorn in her PJ's and I nearly cried, because I wonder how long we will have nightly cuddle sessions on the couch with popcorn. :eek:

It kind of feels like something died. Melancholy. :: shrugs ::
 
redpepper said:
I appreciate your attempts to figure Mono out. I love that you are interested rather than judgemntal. The approach is refreshing and welcome.

In order to understand Mono, one would have to be here I think. He is very monogamous. What can I say? Monogamous, mainstream and conservative. What the hell I am doing with him I don't know, as I am so not. Our values are vastly different, and our goals are, too.
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It is refreshing. I enjoy talking about all of the different pieces of people's differences, but it's not enjoyable when it becomes a judgmental person-bashing. I've enjoyed reading what you ask Flamecat, because you don't go there.

As for Mono, my dear, I get him. He's so much like Chris in those ways. I get it very well. I've been living with "one of those" for nearly 10 years! ;)

It's all good, Mono. There's room for each one of us unique individuals!
 
LovingRadiance said:
It is refreshing. I enjoy talking about all of the different pieces of people's differences, but it's not enjoyable when it becomes a judgmental person bashing. I've enjoyed reading what you ask, Flamecat, because you don't go there.

As for Mono, my dear, I get him. He's so much like Chris in those ways. I get it very well. I've been living with "one of those" for nearly 10 years!

It's all good, Mono. There's room for each one of us unique individuals!
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Thanks, both of you. I do try to be as unbiased and non-judgmental as I can, particularly with these subjects, as they can be so personal and easily trigger people. That, and I am, and have always been, of the view that it takes all kinds and that we are all here for a reasons, learning being the main one. Our differences are what make us all so special. Understanding those differences is, to me, what makes everything worthwhile. And being understood is even better than that.

And for the record, I think I do get Mono, just as I get WW. The concepts of 'why' they are the way they are is where I fall down and need to learn more for my own understanding. But otherwise, yeppers, awesome people, all of you. I count you all among my friends, and I don't judge friends.
 
MonoVCPHG said:
Double ditto, just to one up LR. :rolleyes:
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Well, just to round it out and triple ditto it, I repeat myself: awesome people, and I count you all my friends *monster hugs*

LOL Bunch of goofballs. Anyone else wanna join the lovefest (platonic lovefest, of course :p) happening here?
 
Jealousy - the brain vs the heart

I read a piece about jealousy on another site). It made me think. I have been jealous, not green with envy, angry jealous, but jealous, nonetheless. What I read is everything my brain has already known. My husband and I have been together for 15 years, married for 13. I know we have a rock-solid foundation. I know he isn't going to up and leave me and our family. I know that we are the most important people in his life. I know that he loves me and isn't replacing me. I know he can love more than one woman and that doesn't diminish the feelings he has for me.

That's what my brain knows. Now, can we please find a way for my brain to communicate this to my heart?

When it comes to jealousy, it is not my brain that has problems comprehending the nature of our marriage and relationships. It is my heart. My heart gets jealous and lonely.

I have found that keeping busy, doing other things, really helps to take my heart's emotions and keep them in check. When I am thinking about other things (whether it is a new crochet pattern or studying for the bar exam), my heart doesn't have a chance to react. But can I really keep that busy all the time?

No, I don't have to keep that busy that much. As time passes, my brain is slowly communicating with my heart. Ever so slowly, the jealousy in my heart is waning, disappearing. It's not completely gone yet, and there are times when it comes back with a vengeance, but it is not as strong as those first few days. And I think part of that is having a place to talk about these emotions and concerns and feelings.

Talking (whether actually talking or typing it out on the forums) forces me to confront my heart on the irrational fears it has. Having a place to talk makes my brain communicate with my heart. My heart is learning all that my brain already knows.

Anyone else experience the brain/heart divide? What do you do to overcome it?
 
I know exactly what you mean, rationally reasoning things out about the situation, but even then, still having trouble with tough feelings.

I don't know the answer, exactly. I do what you do-- occupy myself, make sure I'm with friends, or doing something fun when my partner is out with other people so that I don't negatively fixate on it.

And I bet there's something about how important it is to acknowledge the feelings you have and just let yourself experience them; repression never helps.

I think there's something special about being able to live in your feelings and not bolt out of the situation or drive yourself nuts. Sounds like you're on the right track with things. :)
 
louise101 said:
....... As time passes, my brain is slowly communicating with my heart... ever so slowly the jealousy in my heart is waning, it's disappearing. It's not completely gone yet and there are times when it comes back with a vengeance... but it is not as strong as those first few days. And I think part of that is having a place to talk about these emotions and concerns and feelings.

Talking (whether actually talking or typing it out on the forums) forces me to confront my heart on the irrational fears it has. Having a place to talk makes my brain communicate with my heart... my heart is learning all that my brain already knows.

Anyone else experience the brain/heart divide? What do you do to overcome it?
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I suspect we all experience this. And like you are learning, the final solution is the same as it is for many things. TIME!

We just have to use the understanding (brain part) to play defense, and ride it out until we start to look back (like you are) and realize how far we actually HAVE come! From there, the rest of the pins seem to fall more rapidly.

Keep on keeping on,
GS
 
I just read a book by Susan Forward called "Obsessive Love," and it really gave me some insight. When I think of jealousy (and this is not an emotion I struggle with very often) I think it has a lot to do with obsessing over another person. I know for me I have to fight codependency issues, or I start to dissolve.

I can see where panic could set in at the thought of losing the love of someone you think you couldn't live without. I am working on the idea that the only person who will be with me till the end of time is myself. No sense glomming onto someone else for my own sense of worth or happiness Deep down, once you learn to love yourself I think the jealousy feelings can subside. (Wow -- do I love myself? I guess I do!)

I really have no desire to possess another human being. If I love them I have no choice but to keep their freedom at the forefront of my mind. Otherwise, they are loving me for less than pure reasons, which can hardly even be called "love" -- obligation, fear, duty, guilt, sympathy, pride... No thanks. You are free to love me and you are free to walk away.

I suppose I sound like I'm on a soapbox. I hope not. This is my personal philosophy and I am not always 100% with it, myself, but it's what I strive for.
 
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