The pace of the one who is struggling most

[AnotherConfused]

Hmm. Upon reading this, I'd say instead of spending a lot of energy figuring out where to have your next escapade with the guy 5 inconvenient hours away.... I'd spend some serious energy planning a hot date with your husband!!!

Yes, well, my husband never disappoints in bed. And we get there more often now that we've cleared the air and made things smooth between us.


I'm sure public restrooms and such are fine if it's quick hot sex you are after, but what I really want is kissing and cuddling, which isn't so great with only a sink and toilet for furniture. Typically, he passes through town on his way between his home and a nearby city where he owns a rental and spends time socially, so we often have only a couple of hours, and usually mid-day, kind of in that window between hotel check-out and hotel check-in, and too early for the movie theater. His car normally has luggage in the back (camping gear, whatever adventure he is heading to or from). I'm thinking next time I'll take the kid seats out of my station wagon and drop the back seat down, fill it up with sleeping bags... but it still feels weird, like we have to plan for petting sessions rather than letting things unfold as they would in a home. Can't really have a cup of tea in the back of the car. It's silly...

The other weird issue is that he is mono himself, and we both agree that he deserves more than I can offer him. This means when he finds someone he'd like to pursue a full relationship with (the kind where you can openly hold hands in public, travel together, and have real sex), I'll be relegated to a friendship role. Mostly I'm fine with this, but I worry that if he really doesn't feel like he can love two women at once, maybe his feelings for me are getting in the way of what he wants. His problem, I suppose. He says he asks himself if he's happier having this limited relationship with me than he would be if he gave it up, and there's no question.

 

[dingedheart]

What about renting a van? Day rates on those are cheap. Thermos of tea, DVD player... Leave the masturbation clean-up to someone else.

Does the new guy know he's had a fluffer type effect on you and your husband? If so, how does he feel about that? At some point, I'd think that would get old.

 

[AnotherConfused]

Van rental... I like that! He joked about buying a van rather than travelling by station wagon.

"Fluffer" makes it sounds like we are shooting porn. I don't think he is bothered, but I will ask. I know the third man in my life is thrilled that he adds something to my sex life, however indirectly.

I feel bad that neither of them (right now) have someone they can finish the act with themselves, but it's really up to them to decide if this is ok or not, I think. I sincerely want them both to find the devoted mono partners they seek, and I would back away if I thought I was preventing it. In fact, one of them told me I have been helping him a lot in that endeavor, by encouraging him to be honest, for "not punishing him" for speaking his mind, and letting him open up more, emotionally. He's kind of a shy nerd-type, so I'm giving him pointers and trying to shore up his confidence with women. And for me, the idea of helping him get to the point of having great sex with a woman he loves, that's a big turn on. I'm happy to fluff.

 

[dingedheart]

He's kind of a shy nerd-type, so I'm giving him pointers and trying to shore up his confidence with women. And for me, the idea of helping him get to the point of having great sex with a woman he loves, that's a big turn on. Happy to fluff.

You keeping thinking like that, you might have the makings of a great sexual healer. I suggest picking up some Barry White and Marvin Gaye CDs for the van/mobile office.

 

[AnnabelMore]

I feel bad that neither of them (right now) have someone they can finish the act with themselves, but it's really up to them to decide if this is ok or not, I think.

I just wanted to say I think you're right on track with this. Poly folk with mono folk and/or folks who have a primary and also have a secondary partner who doesn't have one, can fall into the trap of feeling guilty and like maybe they should cut things off for the good of the other person. But that's a condescending way to look at it. As long as our partners aren't clearly suffering, we need to trust them to make their own choices. Good on you for recognizing that.

 

[AnotherConfused]

I just wanted to say I think you're right on track with this. Poly folk with mono folk and/or folks who have a primary and also have a secondary partner who doesn't have one, can fall into the trap of feeling guilty and like maybe they should cut things off for the good of the other person. But that's a condescending way to look at it -- as long as our partners aren't clearly suffering, we need to trust them to make their own choices. Good on you for recognizing that.

Funny, but the man I've loved for 20 years actually suggested to me a while back that I wasn't being fair to my newer love by drawing him into a relationship where I can't meet all his needs (sexual or otherwise). I think maybe he was just feeling jealous, since that has always been his role, the would-be lover on the edge of my life. I don't think I have an obligation to worry about either of them, as long as I keep being honest about what anyone can expect. They're big boys. They can make up their own minds.

I should have given them nicknames on here by now. Anyway, I asked the one I was with this week if he minded his role in augmenting my sex life at home, and he is totally fine about it. Now I feel like just about the happiest woman on the planet. Life is buzzing with love and excitement.

 

[dingedheart]

You're happy to fluff the bfs. What about when your husband starts thinking about having an outside relationship or two? Are you ready for that? Are you good with that happening?

 

[AnotherConfused]

What about when your husband starts thinking about having an outside relationship or two? Are you ready for that?

At this point, my husband cannot imagine ever wanting a romantic or sexual relationship with anyone he has no desire to be married to. I suspect even with me (the only romantic or sexual partner he has ever had) the desire to marry came first. The idea of him having other relationships is so far-fetched in my mind, I can only imagine it as erotically thrilling to me, the thought of passion overriding his scientific, logical mind. I suppose a host of other emotions would come up if it ever became a real possibility, but I can't predict what those would be. I would deal with them as they arose.

I'm having a hard time seeing the other two as boyfriends. In reading definitions on here I'd say they fit the "tertiary" description better than "secondary." Both want monogamous partnerships once they find the right woman, so I am hoping for long-term friendships, with this current phase of greater physical intimacy being temporary. I guess I'll feel some loss when either of them moves on, but getting this opportunity now is such a dream come true. I've only seen one of them once since things opened up with my husband, but the feeling of freedom makes me feel good every day (and most nights, as my husband could attest). Our marriage has not felt this close or content in a long time.

 

[AnnabelMore]

Not to get repetitive, but I am so happy for you guys, still.

 

[bassman]

The idea of him having other relationships is so far-fetched in my mind, I can only imagine it as erotically thrilling to me, the thought of passion overriding his scientific, logical mind. I suppose a host of other emotions would come up if it ever became a real possibility,

Like!
This is how I feel about my wife, but with her I get excited when I see a hint that she's overriding her religious, traditionalist mind. For her, even holding hands with someone else other than me, is, I think, a long way off. Mind you, she's off on a business trip next month and a male colleague there has been in touch. I await news of that with interest. I hope he asks her out for dinner/coffee or something, and I hope she goes!

She gets her traditionalist thinking from her parents. It would be my ULTIMATE one day, to see their faces (if she had a boyfriend, that is), when she introduces her boyfriend to them!

 

[Magdlyn]

At this point my husband cannot imagine ever wanting a romantic or sexual relationship with anyone he has no desire to be married to. I suspect even with me (the only romantic or sexual partner he has ever had) the desire to marry came first.

My goodness. I'd be afraid to marry a virgin. So much responsibility. I've also met those who married as virgins in their 20's, who by their mid thirties began to wonder obsessively, what did I miss out on?

Were you also a virgin or had you had experiences?

 

[dingedheart]

Those thoughts do happen. I can think of 4 on here who said the same thing, and later came around, and 3 acted on those thoughts and found other partners. So that erotic thrill might just be down the road a bit.

I remember when it happened to me at a charity golf event. The women running the event sent ladies with a specific skill set (show cleavage and play to weak men) to specific holes to sell raffle tickets. When we got to 5, Barb, the volunteer selling tickets, said, "Welcome to my hole," and then every sexual innuendo she could think of. She offered to wash balls, lick balls for good luck, blah, blah. The grand prize was a Hummer leased free for a year. The "Hummer" was more material. I had so much fun bantering back and forth, I told her I wanted to buy her a drink after, not at all expecting she would take me up on it. She did, and we had lots of drinks. Somewhere between the second and third round it hit me-- I could easily play this out to its sexy conclusion. This could be a lot of fun.

Personally, I think its just a matter of time and opportunity before those thoughts creep in. Acting on them may be something different. That could be more situational.

 

[AnotherConfused]

My goodness. I'd be afraid to marry a virgin. So much responsibility. I've also met those who married as virgins in their 20s, who by their mid-30s began to wonder obsessively, what did I miss out on?

Were you also a virgin or had you had experiences?

The first week we had sex, I told him he'd surely want to experience it with someone else at some point, and I'd understand. He thought that was ridiculous and it was never mentioned again, although I have let him know once in a while that I find the thought of him with someone else arousing. In his mind, sex is a way of interacting with your spouse. We're 40 now and he hasn't seemed to change his perspective on it. He hasn't learned to flirt, even with me.

I'm grateful to have had many and varied experiences myself before meeting him, from flings to longer-term relationships. But maybe in my case it's because I do know what I'm missing, that I want more. I find little things that used to bother me about the way my husband interacts sexually don't matter now. He just can't talk dirty. He only starts laughing. But one of my friends does that really well. And the other guy is a breast man, and I don't have a figure that usually attracts those, so it is another kind of excitement for me to experience that attention. Now I can enjoy my husband for what he does do (which is fantastic) without feeling a loss for what he doesn't.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

My goodness. I'd be afraid to marry a virgin. So much responsibility. I've also met those who married as virgins in their 20's, who by their mid thirties began to wonder obsessively, what did I miss out on?

Were you also a virgin or had you had experiences?

LOL My husband pretty much thinks it's cruel and unusual punishment to get married when you're still a virgin. Like, it's a crime against your future spouse not to get as awesome as possible at sex before you tie the knot. Hey, no complaints here!!

 

[AnotherConfused]

LoL my husband pretty much thinks it's cruel and unusual punishment to get married when you're still a virgin Like, it's a crime against your future spouse not to get as awesome as possible at sex before you tie the knot. Hey, no complaints here!!

You know, it has been awkward having to teach my husband everything he should know about sex... but on the other hand, now he's sort of "custom made" to my specifications. He knows exactly what I like.

A couple of things have happened for me in the time since my husband and I came to our comfortable understanding and redefined boundaries. I saw one of my friends (this is getting awkward -I'm going to call him Colin) a couple of weeks ago for that clumsy fumbling around in his car.

After that, he was busy with holiday travel and didn't have as much time to email or chat online as we had been, and I suddenly realized that I have boundaries now that are independent of what is ok with my husband, and I'm actually not comfortable being that intimate when we have such peripheral roles in each other's lives.

Today he passed through town again, with about an hour to spare for me, and we had a good talk about it. He actually does want to adjust his habits a bit to make more time for me, which makes me feel a lot better. We're in such a strange situation, not being in a position to pursue any kind of "serious" relationship (in terms of being partners), my not wanting to take him away from his active, travel-intensive lifestyle and he not wanting to intrude on my family life. So we are now trying to figure out where we can intersect.

It was a good conversation, followed by a few minutes of somewhat more chaste kissing in his car. Oh yes, he did bring up the fact that after his last visit he left me in such a state of arousal that my husband ended up getting quite a lovely night out of it, and far from being disturbed, he was really thrilled to have done that for me (us), and hopes to be able do that again. He's scheduling a full day in town with me in a couple of weeks, so we'll see where that goes.

The other development is that I have made plans to spend Saturday at the home of my other friend, heretofore called Luke (I think he was also Luke in another thread or two.) He's the one I've known since I was about 20, and in the past 2 decades we've grown to become friends, confidantes, and increasingly attracted to each other.

I do feel important to Luke, and have for years, and I have no reservations about taking things all the way to my husband's limits. He's been slightly uneasy about whether my husband is really ok about it, but not so much that he isn't eager and willing to do whatever I ask. For the past week or so I've been incredibly turned on by the thought of finally feeling his hands on me... something I've fantasized about for such a very long time.

Ironically, I want to be able to tell my husband how very happy I am that I finally have this freedom to love Colin and Luke, and enjoy more intimacy, and it makes me love him ever so much. But I also know that he really doesn't want to talk or hear about these other relationships, so I have not said anything. I just tell him I love him, and I'm happy, and I keep coming to bed naked. I suppose he gets my drift.

 

[dingedheart]

This is so very new that your "touch buddies" are just getting started. Kind of takes me back to Jr. High or High School. I could see it being fun for a while. I could also see it getting out of control real quick. But that's just from my memories. Is aerosol whip cream allowed? Wait. Better not. Come to think of it, maybe that's how things got out of control. But if you do, that's another reason to use the rent a van.

It's maybe too early to tell, but has this helped your husband initiate things with you? What stopped you from coming to bed naked before? Or did you, and he didn't notice?

 

[MonoVCPHG]

This is related to the thread title, but not directly to your situation. I've been thinking about the concept of moving at the pace of the one who is struggling the most. If both partners want to create more openness in their relationship, I believe it truly works and is an excellent way to move forward.

But something has always nagged at me about this. Often with the situations we read about, this is not about two people moving forward towards something they both want. It's often about moving towards a change that one partner does want, and the other doesn't. In these, cases I think one person is moving towards something they are excited about, while the other is merely trying to cope as their partner's journey unfolds.

They aren't moving forward at all, because to them, moving forward probably means something different. In one person's eyes, more openness is a positive; in the other's eyes it's a negative. More openness might mean "moving forward" to one, where it is seen as purely "change" to the other, with no implication of being a positive direction as it is often portrayed by those who want it.

The first main failing in this situation is that there is no shared goal, and one partner is probably not truly interested in moving forward at all. The second, and probably most damaging failing is, if achieved, there is not a lot of obvious and pure emotional reward for the reluctant partner.
In this type of scenario, the reluctant partner can become more of an observer than an active participant in this journey. They are watching and processing to see how much they can take and if they can adapt to the new relationship in a healthy way. The reed is being bent and they watch to see if they can predict if and when it will break.

What do they do if the reed is going to break? Both people deserve the kind of life and relationship they can be healthy in, but are both willing to break the reed to achieve it, if that is what is required?

So what would be the motivation to do this? Some, I believe, are positive traits, like wanting to support your partner, or finding some joy in witnessing their happiness. Maybe they want to achieve something as an unrelated reward: "You get that, so I get this." Maybe the person believes there is personal growth to be found in challenging themselves to do this. All are valid reasons, I think.

But some are motivated by negative traits, like feeling trapped by the external pressures associated with the relationship. Mortgages, kids, retirement plans, finances, saving face to friends and family by "not failing" in the relationship. There is the possibility that the person is setting themselves up for an "honourable exit" in the eyes of family and friends, or simply need something extreme to leave the relationship. Those are the people I worry about.

I guess, in short, when saying you are moving forward at the pace of the one who is struggling the most, it is important to really explore if you are actually moving forward together at all.

 

[AnotherConfused]

This is so very new that your "touch buddies" are just getting started. Kind of takes me back to high school. I could see it being fun for a while. I could also see it getting out of control real quick. But that's just from my memories. Is whip cream allowed? Wait, maybe that's how things got out of control.

It may be too early to tell, but has this helped your husband initiate things with you? What stopped you from coming to bed naked before? Or did you, and he didn't notice?

"Touch buddies," that's cute. They are that, but with a big emotional layer. I actually told Colin a while back that he feels like a high school boyfriend to me-- it's all romance and hand holding and trying to kiss when no one's looking, without the heaviness of going anywhere serious or including sex. (At least for me, I wanted nothing to do with sex in high school.)

I think my husband has been initiating sex a little more. Hard to say, because I don't often wait for him to. And we had gotten out of the habit of nude sleeping because of the kids. We were co-sleeping at first, and now the occasional night when we have to get up and deal with a wet bed or someone comes in after a bad dream. But now I just keep a nightgown nearby. Everything is light years better now, sexually, for us.

Mono, your comments are relevant to my situation, as well, and I really appreciate your perspective (the mono man with the poly woman). I think this is exactly how it was for my husband. I'm trying to move "forward" and he's thinking, "Why the heck would we want to move in that direction?!" Which is why I waited over a year to make this recent push. I really think it has been unfair to him, for me to foist my polyamory on him more than a decade into our marriage. But for me, the direction I needed to go just kept pulling me harder and harder, to the point where I was unhappy and our marriage was going cold over the strain.

In your analogy of the bending reed, I would say that it can bend too far in either direction, and the mono direction was threatening to break it for me. He asked about poly, "What's in it for me?" and while I never could really come up with a good answer other than "a happy wife," I think the outcome we are getting now really is good for both of us.

What he has given me is the freedom to love Colin and Luke (something I felt, regardless), and to share a limited amount of intimacy and time with each of them. What he loses, I guess, is a small amount of my time and attention (not much more than with any other friend or interest I have) and the change to the boundaries of our relationship.

Our marriage now has this aspect that he is maybe a little ashamed of, that we must keep hidden. (Oddly, he told my mother without asking me if that was ok.) He has the knowledge that he's not the only one who kisses me, or touches me, but he's still the only one putting a penis in me, and the only one sleeping beside me at night. He's the one I have a home with, have children with, plan the future with.

What he has gained is a very happy wife. Not just happy because I get to have more physical intimacy with Colin and Luke, but happy because I'm not feeling torn any more, and I'm not feeling like he is keeping me from what I want any more. Marriage doesn't feel confining now. It feels supportive, especially now that I have figured out that his hard limits (no PIV sex, oral sex) are no more restrictive than what I want for myself in those two relationships.

With Colin, our physical intimacy is now slowing down to the pace of our emotional intimacy, as we try to figure out our roles in each other's lives, and with Luke, that man has bedded so many dozens of women over the years, that I kind of feel like it makes me more special to withhold just that much in our relationship. So, it's no longer my husband holding me back from how much I do with them, it's my own wants and needs.

My husband gets a happier wife, more and much hotter sex, more emotional intimacy between us after the conversations this forced us to have, and probably better treatment from me. I used to catch myself, when we went out dancing, wanting to correct things about the way he danced, adjust his grip or correct his rhythm, and I'd hate to hear myself do that, because I don't correct any other man I dance with. I realized it's because I'm more vested in how well he dances, since he's my husband. When I shift my focus and just let him dance like one of the many other men I dance with, and not a possession of mine, we both have more fun.

Now I can do the same with love. It's okay if he doesn't show me love in exactly the way I want to feel it, because he's one of a few who love me. I can enjoy what he has to offer, and let Colin and Luke give me flirty and dirty.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

In your analogy of the bending reed, I would say that it can bend too far in either direction, and the mono direction was threatening to break it for me. .

This is very important to acknowledge. I fully appreciate the strain on the poly partner's end of the situation. I am truly gald that you are both finding happiness and benefits in this journey Your thread was the perfect spot to express and explore this idea for me. Thanks!

 

[IndieSolo]

I've been thinking about the concept of moving at the pace of the one who is struggling the most. ... Often with the situations we read about this is not about two people moving forward towards something they both want. It's often about moving towards a change that one partner does and the other often doesn't. ... In one person's eyes, more openness is a positive, in the other's eyes it is a negative. ... The first main failing in this situation is there is no shared goal and one partner is probably not truly interested in moving forward at all. ... if achieved, there is not a lot of obvious and pure emotional reward for the reluctant partner.

Good stuff to ponder, Mono. I think it's okay if there isn't the same goal shared between partners for this concept to be applied and work well in a relationship. I think it's natural in most partnerships that there will on occasion be some kind of accomplishment they move toward with differing goals in mind. If it really is only one person who sees any value in such changes to a relationship and both partners don't honestly consent to it, then it isn't moving forward, it isn't consensual, nor based on an agreement, I would think.

So, while I don't think it's necessary for two partners to have a "shared goal," as in the same exact goal, to consider "going at the pace of the one who struggles most" to be "moving forward," I think there has to be some perceived value, and a willingness to agree from each partner. Obviously, there needs to be lots and lots of straightforward, honest communication.

I think the problems that we often see with some people's situations of "going at the pace of the one who struggles most," here and on other forums, can usually be attributed to one of several reasons:

• one partner "moves forward" without truly getting agreement from the other, and essentially tells them to "suck it up";
• the partner wanting change coerces the other to go along with it, even though they don't really want to, and makes the changes before their partner is ready to accept them;
• the "moving forward" partner gets impatient and jumps ahead of where they agreed to be, breaks boundaries, etc., and then blames the other for keeping things dragging on too long; or
• the "struggling" partner is fearful or insecure and deliberately slows things down to prevent any more change from happening, even though they agreed and recognize the value of whatever those changes are.

But implicit in the concept of "going at the pace of the one who struggles most" is that there has been agreement to do so. One of the basic defining characteristics of polyamory is that it is consensual, so if there isn't consent by all parties, then the whole "going at the pace" thing flies out the window and is just one person giving lip service and having their own way.

AnotherConfused, I know Mono wasn't talking specifically about your situation, but I just want to mention (since this is your thread!) that I think you have been really thoughtful and careful about addressing this with your husband, and you made it clear you would not move forward in any way if he was not consenting to it. So, I believe you are both moving forward, even though this isn't something he ever would have wanted if you'd never brought it to him. He saw the value in giving his consent and agreement, in that he gets a "happier wife" and a reprieve from having to discuss it again, which is something he was uncomfortable with, so it also brings him peace in that way, in addition to some other things. And maybe just having a harmonious marriage was the "shared goal" in this.

He asked about poly, "What's in it for me?" and while I never could really come up with a good answer other than "a happy wife," I think the outcome we are getting now really is good for both of us.

What he has given me is the freedom to love C and L (something I felt regardless) and to share a limited amount of intimacy and time with each of them. ...

What he has gained is a very happy wife. ... My husband gets a happier wife, more and much hotter sex, more emotional intimacy between us after the conversations this forced us to have, and probably better treatment from me.