Being her cuckold is one thing, but I don't think I can cope with poly

[David1985]

How long did it take you to adjust to the cuckolding thing-- several days, weeks or months?

What feels different this time, and why? Has she done something to make you not trust her?

The cuckold thing started with roleplay and her asking me, while we were watching porn, if I would like to see her with another guy. She would tease me while doing this. She had already suggested her having a lover as a solution to her ongoing frustration. From there, to me knowing it was the right thing for us, took a few months. I knew it was right with certainty after she invited him around to ours and told me to watch them. Being submissive, I think she knew that I would like it, and she was clever in how she did it. But she was right. I like being her cuckold a lot.

I do trust her. She has not been dishonest. But I don't like what she has done. Although I was not happy about her having a lover, she told me she would make it good for me, and I felt better about it. I'm not happy about poly. She is telling me she will again make it good for me, but I do not feel better about it.

 

[David1985]

You trusted her against your better judgment, and now you see that your misgivings were justified. Now she wants you to trust her again, against your better judgment. "Come on, go ahead and trust me to be poly, even though you sense that there is disaster down the road." Have you ever thought that maybe now is the time to trust your instincts? You trusted her not to develop feelings for this other guy, even though you knew better then. You probably don't want to make that mistake twice.

It's not that I don't trust her. I know that she believed what she said, and I know that she believes what she is saying now. But I also know things can change, as they have. I'm not happy as things are now, though, and I'm trying to convince myself that it can work.

This, I think, is the core of the problem. You accepted this other man coming into the picture on the basis that he would provide her with the sex she wanted, while you would provide her with the romantic/emotional benefits. That means he would provide her with one thing, while you would provide her with the one other thing. There would be a balance in how much each man provided for her. Now, you are faced with a situation in which the other man provides her with *two* things -- sex and romance -- while you only provide her with *one* thing -- romance. In that situation, why would she bother to keep you around? She has everything she needs with him.

Partly. I know that she loves me, but what if that changes? It could... However, my main concern I now realise is about the present, and not so much the future. I am crazy jealous now that she has told me she loves him. This was very recent. It happened after he told me he loved her. I was expecting her to say that she did not have the same feelings for him. It was a shock. I am trying to put a brave face on it, but it really hurts.

So I don't think you are trying to decide whether to break up with her. Rather, you are concerned that *she* is going to break up with *you,* that you are going to be unable to compete with the other man. So, you want to tell her to not get polyamorously involved with him, in order to protect your ability to provide her with something that she needs. If you lose that ability, you will lose her. At least, that is how you see the situation. Do I have the right idea?

No. Right now I am very unhappy because, in truth, I know it is far more likely that I will leave, not her.

So cuckolding, as it turns out, isn't a problem at all for you. You trusted her on that point, and things turned out okay. So why are you feeling reluctant to trust her now?

The cuckolding is good, which she was right about. It isn't that I don't trust her, it's more that I think she is wrong. I know she believes it will be good, but I don't.

Your first concern seems to be that if you accepted poly with her and this other man, you would be forced to out yourselves as polyamorous. This is a huge concern by itself. Included in it is that you would have to admit to your friends and family that she was pregnant with his child. You are wondering what your friends and family would think of you.

There is a lot to unpack in the above paragraph. First, have you discussed the possibility of her bearing this other man's child? She's already having sex with him, right? Is it protected sex? Do they use condoms? Does she use birth control? If she became emotionally involved with him -- and she already is -- would/does that mean no more condoms, no more birth control? What has she said about that?

Yes, we discussed it, and she said that it will not happen because she is so very careful with her birth control pills. They don't use condoms. We have also spoken about us having a child together, but not yet. She is driven by her career and is focused on that at the moment.

Next there is the huge question of whether to out yourselves to the world. First, would you really have to? And if so, why? Somehow it seems that her emotional involvement with the other man automatically means that she would have to out herself. Perhaps you don't know this, but lots of poly people (myself included) are mostly or completely in the closet about it. It can be done. Is there some reason that it can't be done in your situation?

My parents have met her parents, we have mutual friends. (That's how we met.) We are all close. She wants to introduce Grant to our friends, just as a friend of ours, at first, but then tell the truth. I was amazed when he said he also wanted this. She has already met his 9-year old son.

Outside questions of outing yourselves, there is the question of what you would do if she got pregnant with his child. Once born, I assume the child would have to live in your home so that she could nurse the child. Would the other man move in to live with you in order to be a father to the child? or would you treat the situation as if *you* were the father? If she is going to have unprotected sex with him, she (perhaps you and she) need to have a discussion about that with him. But again, who says polyamory means unprotected sex? She could still use condoms -- and birth control -- with him. Unless the three of you decide otherwise.

I could never accept her having his child. Selfish? Not very poly? Maybe, but I know I could not. I'm sorry...

 

[David1985]

Okay, so you have premature ejaculation and haven't been able to learn to increase your stamina in fucking. You say you worked on it, but it was unsuccessful. One wonders what you tried. Or maybe you could have gotten some help from her. There are many techniques to try.

I've tried everything, including seeing a doctor, and some things helped a little, but not a lot. It was always a problem for me, but never that big a deal in previous relationships. I tend to make the best of things. I'm a confident, positive person, and when I knew this was a problem, I concentrated on being good at other things, other skills, and that was always good enough.

Anyway, we all know that PIV is not the only way to be sexually satisfied, for men, women or other-gendered people. And you do have sexual skills. You're just lacking in stamina when fucking. And Lena really really wants that.

Lena needs to be fucked till she loses herself, and that is what happens with Grant. Lena and I no longer have PIV sex. That is one of our cuck things. I do have other skills, which Lena likes. She likes me being sensual, soft, gentle and loving with her, because we are in love. However, she much prefers dominant men in bed, but not dominant out of bed. So it wasn't just the PE. It was also the fact that my penis is quite small; I can't be rough with her; and I can't spank her or tie her up. That's not me. If we had not fallen for each other so quickly and so strongly, it would never have lasted.

I wonder if you ever used dildos on her. If your arms are good and strong, they work well. You could even use a strap on. Or a penis extender that reduces sensation. You could have seen a doctor. Etc.

I get her off with oral, or with my hands, and I have lots of toys that she likes that I penetrate her with. We have a strap on, but she uses it on me, not the other way around.

Lena took up with Grant. An old bf. She broke up with him once. But somehow, this time, things are working out better, maybe because he didn't have the pressure right away to be a "real bf?" He was just her "bull," as they say.

They were having an affair before we met. They were not BF & GF. He was married, and she ended it when her conscience kicked in. Lena heard that he had separated from his wife. So when we needed a "bull," she wanted him, because he is so good in bed.

But somehow along the way, he did become a "real bf." Lena and Grant did not follow the protocol that keeps things on a casual-sex basis, techniques such as avoiding eye contact, avoiding non-sexual cuddling, getting up and out of bed as soon as sufficient sexual satisfaction was achieved, getting dressed and parting ways. No hand holding, no dating, no texting, except to set up dates, or maybe do some sexting as foreplay.

That is right.

No. They spent more time together. They even hung out with you in the mix. You are romantic with Lena. Maybe that romance rubbed off on Grant. Things are already sounding pretty "kitchen-table poly" to me. You are even including threeway sex, which is unusual in poly. It sounds to me like a D/s cuckolding situation has gone well on the way to polyamory already. And Lena is still loving you, still having sex with you, still living with you. And your friends don't know, even though she's been spending two nights a week at Grant's for some time now.

Yes. "It's kitchen-table poly" already, and I don't like it, but I'm trying.

But somehow, just labeling it poly, and requesting one more night a week at Grant's place has got you worried that this is the time you "need" to tell friends and family about Lena's OSO, to worry suddenly about pregnancy, when she's already dated him in the past and not gotten pregnant, dated you for years and not gotten pregnant, had sex with (dated) Grant for two years and still not gotten pregnant!

Lena wants to tell people, and I really cannot go with that. As for her getting pregnant, that is more to do with the future. I can't imagine Lena having his baby and my parents and friends knowing about it. I'm really trying, but I can't.

In D/s, as in poly, everyone's needs and desires and preferences matter. Just because you have a problem with premature ejaculation does not mean you must let these two more forceful personalities call all the shots and arrange your life entirely for you. Subs' needs matter too.

The PE really isn't a problem now. It actually fits in with the whole cuck thing. The sex side is still really good between the three of us. I know my needs matter, and that is why I am so conflicted and giving this all so much thought.

You have power here, and rights. It doesn't have to keep snowballing until she leaves you entirely. But they did break up once. Why are they getting along better now?

They were never really together before, it was just sex, although they have always got on well. I guess they have slowly fallen in love over the last two years.

I'm not going to let it keep snowballing. I feel things are gonna come to a head soon. I just don't know what way it will go.

 

[fuchka]

David, it's helpful to read your responses and how you've reflected on what other people have said. I hope that you can come to a peaceful decision about this, even if you also feel sad or uncertain.

Sorry for misreading your narrative and not picking up on the fact that Lena's already spending two nights/week with Grant.

So, you've been trying poly, and you've found:

• It's hard to see Grant being intimate with Lena. It pains you to see them holding hands, expressing love for each other.
• You don't think you'll ever be comfortable with them being open about their relationship with your families and mutual friends.
• You don't think you could ever accept Lena having a child with Grant.

Clearly polyamory is not an easy fit for you, if you are compatible with it at all. On the positive side, though, you seem really strong in your own boundaries (despite your generally laidback attitude and the sexual submissiveness). And you say that communication is mostly good with Lena.

It's not great that she's slipping a bit on the communication front when it comes to the newly-developing poly situation. It's likely she's buzzing from the nascent intimacy with Grant, and she'll need to take care to actively listen to you and communicate well. I'm glad you haven't felt dismissed so far, though. That's a good sign. (By the way, I recognised some of my own traits in Lena, and I'm also a lawyer, so that made me chuckle!)

Based on what you've said in this thread, it's hard to think of many "poly futures" you'd be comfortable with.

The only possibility I can think of that might work is:

• Grant and Lena agree to avoid being intimate around you, apart from any sexual encounters where you all consent to it. You set the pace for any changes on this front.
• Lena and Grant wait at least a year (or another timeframe that feels okay to you) before coming out to friends or family, unless you feel comfortable with it earlier.
• Lena and Grant agree to continue to use birth control and to not have kids together, unless you are comfortable with it, with the understanding that you might never be comfortable with it. (You do have to accept that an unplanned pregnancy could happen, and come to terms with your feelings around that.)

This is a lot for another couple to agree to, but I reckon you'll need a lot of scaffolding to feel even close to being okay with continuing your relationship with Lena, if she's still dating Grant.

It's a long way from a "joyful yes" (to borrow a phrase from GalaGirl) but it's a long-shot compromise that might feel okay to you.

Re the first point above, being privy to Lena and Grant's emotional intimacy isn't easy on you. I imagine it's harder because you've already shared sexual intimacy and developed trust, and now you've lost some of the sure footing that all that was built on. You're trying to rebuild underneath, while the superstructure is not only still there, but having its own renovations! You'll never "un-know" that they are emotionally intimate, of course, but protecting you from the visual signs of it could give you more conceptual space to acclimatise to it (if acclimatising is at all possible for you). So, winding back to more "parallel" poly than "kitchen table" might help.

Re the second point: Keeping a relationship secret rarely works long term, which is why I think a timeframe on that is necessary. If you don't feel differently in a year (or however long), then you would need to break up. If you can't bear to put a timeframe on this, at this point, then I'd say your choice is made for you. You'll need to tell Lena that you are not willing or able to continue doing poly.

Re the third point: I don't think you've said that Lena and Grant have expressed a desire to have kids together, so this could be a non-issue for them. It's a really fraught area and it's not always something controllable, esp if they are having unprotected sex (even with Lena being careful with birth control pills). This issue sounds like a dealbreaker for you, so you'd need to be upfront with this.

Obviously Lena or Grant may not be agreeable to any of that. But if it's all you can offer, then all you can do is put it out there and see if they are willing to work with you on that. I acknowledge that even my suggestions might be too much for you to stomach!

Good on you for taking time to consider your feelings and your options. You sound like a sensible person who would make the best decision for themselves, even if it's a painful choice.

 

[Magdlyn]

It's great to hear back from you.

I hear that you're a submissive. You won't or can't use a strap on to penetrate Lena until she "loses" herself. And I guess the toys to penetrate her don't give her complete satisfaction. She wants thorough PIV with a large penis. Fair enough. We want what we want.

Also, you just mentioned the BDSM activities of bondage, spanking and rough sex. That wasn't clear before. So, Grant offers many things sexually and kink-wise that you don't. You must fear that she will come to prefer a rough Dom over your soft, gentle submissive style. But maybe she likes/loves both. Maybe she loves to be Dommed by him, but also loves Domming you. (She's a switch and needs both roles.) Therefore, this kind of V is perfect for her. I know it's way out of your comfort zone, though, and that's okay. This is not just about her.

I'm concerned that Lena and Grant were in an affair where he was cheating on his wife previously. He may end up cheating on her. Is she sure he won't? This is especially important because they aren't using condoms.

On the other hand, given their history of sneaking around, I can kind of see why they want to come out to at least some friends.

You, however, enjoyed the kink of cuckolding, but behind closed doors only. And here we are. Lena and Grant were lovers, and friends, and nature combined the two, and it became romantic love. That's nature's way. You thought it could be kept to only "casual sex" for them, but it was not to be. And now you have to make some decisions.

You can offer compromises, as fuchka suggests. You can take some time and see how negotiations go. You could also do couple's therapy. This is a huge transition. You enjoyed the "small-penis humiliation," which can be seen as uncomfortable by many. But you don't want the "public humiliation," as you see it, by coming out as in a polyamorous situation. You don't really say why you'd find that unbearable.

Some poly people are out. Some poly people are closeted. Some are only out to very close trusted friends. Some lucky people are able to be out to everyone they know, friends, family, bosses and coworkers and neighbors, and not suffer repercussions. We have many threads here on coming out; you can do a search.

We also have many threads on kids and poly.

Read the book Opening Up, for more information on couples transitioning from monogamy/monoamory to polyamory, or from swinging to polyamory, or from "don't ask, don't tell" (DADT) to polyamory.

We have a member here, Al, who was in a mono marriage until his wife rekindled with an old bf. He did tons of research when she told him she really wanted to get with her old bf. They moved slowly and gradually and it worked out. And after a couple of years, he also opened his mind to his own poly potential. And now he has two gfs, one nearby, and one long distance.

 

[GalaGirl]

But you sound like you want a monoamorous thing – where you and she are each other's only sweeties. Monoamorous and polysexual was fine – sharing sex with others for the cuck kink because you two remained each other's only sweeties. But now she wants another sweetie. You don't sound like you want to participate in this new dating offer. She is asking you to abandon a core value.

That is correct, but I'm not certain if I should accept the poly thing, now that I know it is here to stay.

You do not want to participate in polyamory, because it goes against a core value you have, but you are thinking about still participating in it anyway, because it won't go away. Is that what you are saying? You want to retain access to her, and so will pay the price of admission, even if it means going against things you value.

An amicable split and just being exes. No trying to be friends. I get that it hurts.

Even the thought of it hurts. I could not be friends with her. That would kill me. I would not see her again.

You do not want to participate in this new dating offer. You are thinking about still participating in it anyway, and hurting yourself in the process, because breaking up with her means not seeing her again. You think not seeing her any more will "kill you"/hurt a lot. Is that what you are saying? I get that you are hurting/grieving. I am not sure you are going to arrive at any decisions if you base it on your hurting, because all choices here carry a certain amount of hurt. It may feel like being stuck between a rock and hard place.

I hope you continue to do your soul searching, and decide to base your decisions on what it is you value, and whether or not you are living in alignment with those values.

I can only imagine how hard this is.

GalaGirl

 

[dingedheart]

She had already suggested her having a lover as a solution to her ongoing frustration. From there to me knowing it was the right thing for us took a few months. I knew it was right with certainty after she invited him around to ours and told me to watch them. Being submissive I think she knew that I would like it, and she was clever in how she did it.But she was right. I like being her cuckold a lot.

I think your dynamic and your personalities have sort of brought you to a place where
A) She feels she knows you better than you know yourself in some areas, or
B) She thinks you’re going through the same process of getting used to the new normal, and
C) Her prior experience only made her more confident in her thinking because, as you say, she was right.

I do trust her. She has not been dishonest, but I don't like what she has done. Although I was not happy about her having a lover, she told me she would make it good for me, and I felt better about it. I'm not happy about poly. She is telling me she will again make it good for me, but I do not feel better about it.

What has she done other than fall in love and want to spend more time with her lover?

I think right now (not sure how long this has been) you’re still grieving the loss of status and prominence. You’re not married. I’m not sure if that was ever discussed. And there aren’t any children between you two as a binder, so you feel the shifts of demotion and displacement as really threatening.

Someone suggested couples counseling, and I don’t think that’s a bad idea. But a cheaper and quicker temperature check and conversation starter might be sending her or them the link to this thread and see what happens next.

I’m not sure what you envisioned for your long-term future with her, but it sounds like all that has drastically changed. There are several members that practice a similar cuckold setup you have. They all said it was hard at first but the husband came around to it over time. I can’t think of the name or names right now, but it might come to me later.

I thought of it after all: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22605

Also brid75, Nathan.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi David,

I am hearing you say that it is not a trust issue; you do trust her; rather, it is a matter of whether you think she really knows how it is this time. She says she will make poly work for you, and she honestly believes that she can make it work for you, but you suspect that she is mistaken in thinking that. Am I correct in that assessment?

Also, you are not worried that she would leave you (for the newer, shinier guy); rather, you are worried that you might have to leave her (because you can't stand the thought of her being poly?). Again, I hope I've got it right, let me know if I have.

I appreciate your willingness to respond to our posts, hopefully this thread will help you decide whether to hang on there with her or to break up. I guess my advice would be to not decide yet, wait and see whether you can stand to go along with poly the way she wants it. There is a lot to unpack here.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[MeeraReed]

Hi David,

You sound like a very thoughtful person who has done a lot of work and processing to understand your own sexuality and to become comfortable (and enjoy!) submission and cuckoldry. It sounds like you have a good relationship with Lena, in spite of this new situation.

So, here is my take: I think you're thinking about this all wrong. You've been thrown through a loop by Lena and Grant falling in love--but it does not have to be a big deal, if you can "deconstruct" your thinking about love & sex a bit.

You wrote this sentence that stood out for me: She likes me being sensual, soft, gentle and loving with her, because we are in love.

Actually, do you think that maybe Lena likes sensual, soft, gentle sex with you because she genuinely ENJOYS that type of sex? Even if she also can't live without rough sex/being dominated, as well? Might Lena genuinely like you and like the sex she has with you, regardless of whether you two have some sort of magical love?

You write as if the way you have sex--submissively, gently, without PIV, with small-penis-humiliation, with Lena using a strap-on on you, with Lena cuckolding you--is okay ONLY because you and Lena are in love.

I think that Lena thinks that sex with you is pretty darn hot! And yes, she also loves you. But that's not the only reason WHY she likes sex with you. You two are sexually compatible! Your kinks are aligned--she likes cuckolding you, you like being cuckolded. She likes dominating you, humiliating you, using a strap-on on you, and having gentle loving sex with you. And you like all of those things!

Sure, it is true that Lena would not be happy having sex ONLY with you. She wants to be dominated herself. Which you understand, because you are submissive too, right? I understand that you struggled at first to become comfortable with accepting that Lena needed another lover. Of course it's hard to accept that your partner craves a kind of sex/kink that you can't give! But luckily for both of you, you turned out to be quite happy with cuckolding.

...Except that for you, the key to cuckolding has been the belief that Lena would never LOVE another man. She could fuck another dude all she wants, as long as you are the only one she loves, her "real" partner.

That's pretty standard for cuckoldry, actually. And it makes sense that you are devastated to learn that Lena and Grant have fallen in love.

But...I don't think you always have to be devastated. Ask yourself some questions. Do you feel that your kinks--the submission, cuckoldry, etc--are only okay because love is involved? What if your kinks are just the way your sexuality is? What if you didn't love anyone--would you still think that being cuckolded is kinda hot? Being submissive, being humiliated--plenty of people find these things hot!

If you left Lena, would you want another partner to have a similar dynamic with you? If so, how would you prevent her from falling in love with her bull?

Do you want Lena to dump Grant, and go seek out strangers to cuckold you? People she could never fall in love with? Would you be comfortable with that?

About Lena and Grant: do you want Lena to spend years fucking a guy (a guy that you actually like and are friends with) and NEVER fall in love with him? That's pretty rare for people to keep on fucking and never develop feelings for each other.

I am not trying to minimize your pain, nor would I want you to put up with a situation that is making you miserable. Just giving you some food for thought.

Because it sounds to me like you and Lena and Grant were ALREADY kind of polyamorous, and that you were ALREADY fairly comfortable with it. You considered Grant a friend. You all seemed to hang out together and talk, at least. I don't think you thought of him as just a bull. You recognized that Lena had a history and friendship with him.

It's just the idea of "love" that has turned a fun situation into devastation and jealousy for you. Lena doesn't seem to be treating you badly or to be seeing you significantly less now, though. You are just freaked out because part of the cuckold fantasy was that you were the one she "truly" loved. And I know that loss is real...but if you want to stay with Lena...can you try to re-think it? (But I'm not advising you to stay with Lena if you don't want to).

I just think you are not quite grasping Lena's perspective. She's having hot sex with her two partners--just very DIFFERENT sex with each one. And she's always loved you, but now she ALSO loves her other partner.

Plenty of polyamorous people enjoy dominating one partner, but being dominated by their other partner. It's not that sex is better with one, it's just a completely different dynamic with each one. Love doesn't have anything to do with it, except that for polyamorous people, it's NICE to be in love with both partners.

I know that a transition from cuckold-fantasy to polyamory is not easy. Nor is it required. If you don't want to do it, you can leave Lena, or you can ask Lena to leave Grant (which she may or may not do). You don't need to put up with something that hurts you just because you're submissive, or just because you've agreed to a cuckold relationship so far.

But, from what you write...I think you have the potential to make polyamory work, IF YOU WANT TO.

I would add, though, that it's perfectly reasonable to ask Lena and Grant not to go public with their relationship yet. For you, that would be like going public with your sexual kinks. (Although I don't think that would be obvious to other people just because Lena has two partners).

Anyway. Hope this helps.

 

[David1985]

David, it's helpful to read your responses and how you've reflected on what other people have said. I hope that you can come to a peaceful decision about this, even if you also feel sad or uncertain.

Thank you, Fuchka. You have all been helpful.

So you've been trying poly and you've found:

• it's hard to see Grant being intimate with Lena. It pains you to see them holding hands, expressing love for each other.
• you don't think you'll ever be comfortable with them being open about their relationship with your families and mutual friends
• you don't think you could ever accept Lena having a child with Grant

• 
  You're right. I'm embarrassed to admit that I am very, very jealous.
  
  
  

  Clearly polyamory is not an easy fit for you, if you are compatible with it at all. On the positive side, though, you seem really strong in your own boundaries (despite your generally laid back attitude and the sexual submissiveness). And you say that communication is mostly good with Lena. It's not great that she's slipping a bit on the communication front when it comes to the newly developing poly situation. It's likely she's buzzing from the nascent intimacy with Grant and she'll need to take care to actively listen to you and communicate well. I'm glad you haven't felt dismissed so far, though. That's a good sign. (By the way, I recognised some of my own traits in Lena and I'm also a lawyer, so that made me chuckle!)

  What are you lawyers like, eh? Lena is buzzing and would be very happy at the moment if it wasn't for me putting a spanner in the works.
  
  

  Based on what you've said in this thread, it's hard to think of many "poly futures" you'd be comfortable with.

  At the moment, I agree, but I have not given up on the three of us yet.
  
  

  The only possibility I can think of that might work is:
  
  [*]Grant and Lena agree to avoid being intimate around you, apart from any sexual encounters where you all consent to it. You set the pace for any changes on this front
  [*]Lena and Grant wait at least a year (or another timeframe that feels ok to you) before coming out to friends or family, unless you feel comfortable with it earlier
  [*]Lena and Grant agree to continue to use birth control and to not have kids together unless you are comfortable with it. With the understanding that you might never be comfortable. (You might have to accept that an unplanned pregnancy could happen, and come to terms with your feelings around that.)

  They are not going to stop being intimate around me. That much I do know. So it's up to me being able to accept it. We have spent a lot of time together over the last week, and it's getting easier.
  
  The three of us coming out as poly is really not going to happen. Grant being introduced to our circle as a friend I am now ok with, although still a little uncomfortable.
  
  Lena does want a baby, but not now. However, we had a fight about it when I asked her who she would want the father to be in the future. At first she refused to answer, but when she was annoyed she said, "Grant is the one that fucks me." She was apologetic when things calmed down, and said she did not mean it, but it doesn't bode well.

 

[David1985]

I hear that you're a submissive. You won't or can't use a strap on to penetrate Lena until she "loses" herself. And I guess the toys to penetrate her don't give her complete satisfaction. She wants thorough PIV with a large penis. Fair enough. We want what we want.

The "loses herself" comment was more to do with how Grant can make her have multiple orgasms to the point where she really lets herself go. She likes toys, but no, it's not the same. What Grant and she have is more than just "PIV with a large penis" though. They are kind of amazing together in bed.

Also you just mentioned the BDSM activities of bondage, spanking and rough sex. That wasn't clear before. So, Grant offers many things sexually and kink-wise that you don't. You must fear that she will come to prefer a rough Dom over your soft, gentle submissive style. But maybe she likes/loves both. Maybe she loves to be Dommed by him, but also loves Domming you. (She's a switch.) Therefore, this kind of V is perfect for her. I know it's way out of your comfort zone, though, and that's okay. This is not just about her.

Yes, they do like BDSM, which I did not want, or could not do with her myself. But I am weirdly turned on by them doing it together. I know she much prefers Grant over me when it comes to sex. I would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to know that. But yes, she likes both.

I'm concerned that Lena and Grant were in an affair where he was cheating on his wife previously. He may end up cheating on her. Is she sure he won't? It's especially important because they aren't using condoms.

He agreed that he would use condoms if he went with anyone else. She did not mind him doing that before, because it was just sex between them. I'm not sure how she feels now about that. She has also been with a few others since the three of us got together, and always used protection.

On the other hand, given their history of sneaking around, I can kind of see why they want to come out to at least some friends.

Yes, I also understand that, and Lena says that it would be no less difficult for Grant if we come out as poly than it would be for me. Which is true, I guess.

You, however, enjoyed the kink of cuckolding, but behind closed doors only. And here we are. Lena and Grant were lovers, and friends, and nature combined the two, and it became romantic love. That's nature's way. You thought it could be kept to only "casual sex" for them, but it was not to be. And now you have to make some decisions.

Nature's a bitch...

You can offer compromises, as fuchka suggests. You can take some time and see how negotiations go. You could also do couple's therapy. This is a huge transition. You enjoyed the "small penis humiliation," which can be seen as uncomfortable by many. But you don't want the "public humiliation," as you see it, by coming out as in a polyamorous situation. You don't really say why you'd find that unbearable.

Not so sure about therapy, but yes, I really enjoy her teasing (SPH). I think the whole cuckold and submission thing gives her a lot of power over me, and she likes that. As for the "public humiliation," I am not sure that that is right. I could accept the humiliation if I thought it was right for me, because I don't much care what others think, but I just feel in my core self that I don't want it, and that it isn't right. Why? I'm not sure why, and that is why I think I should keep working on it for now.

 

[David1985]

You do not want to participate in this poly because it goes against a core value you have, but you are thinking about still participating in it anyway because it won't go away. (Is that what you are saying?) You want to retain access to her, and so will pay the price of admission, even if it means going against things you value.

Yes, I'm going against things I value for now in the hope that we can make something work.

You do not want to participate in this new dating offer. You are thinking about still participating in it anyway, and hurting yourself in the process, because breaking up with her means not seeing her again. You think not seeing her any more will kill you/hurt a lot. Is that what you are saying?

Yes. I cannot begin to tell you how much I love her.

I get that you are hurting/grieving. I am not sure you are going to arrive at any decisions if you base it on your hurting because all choices here carry a certain amount of hurt. It may feel like being stuck between a rock and hard place.

I am not going to make any decisions feeling the way I do at the moment. I want to be clear-headed, and be as close to certain as I can be before I make a call.

 

[David1985]

I think you dynamic and your personalities have sort of brought you to a place where A) she feels she knows you better than you know yourself in some areas.

She thinks she knows everyone better than they know themselves.

Or B). She thinks you’re going through the same process of getting use to the new normal.

Yes, and she could be right. I don't think so, though.

And her prior experience only made her more confident in her thinking because, as you say, she was right.

Confidence is something she never lacks, and I love her for that.

What has she done other than fall in love and want to spend more time with said lover?

The one thing she did that really hurt me is the fact that she has started to build a relationship with his son. She never told me that she had even met him until very recently, and they were introduced months ago.

I’m not sure what you envisioned for your long-term future with her, but it sounds like all that has drastically changed.

It sure has changed. I guess I wanted things to stay exactly as they were. I was asking too much, and I guess I was more than a little naive, as well.

 

[David1985]

I am hearing you say that it is not a trust issue; you do trust her; rather, it is a matter of whether you think she really knows how it is this time. She says she will make poly work for you, and she honestly believes that she can make it work for you, but you suspect that she is mistaken in thinking that. Am I correct in that assessment?

That is correct, Kevin.

Also, you are not worried that she would leave you (for the newer, shinier guy); rather, you are worried that you might have to leave her (because you can't stand the thought of her being poly?). Again, I hope I've got it right, let me know if I have.

At the moment, I feel there is more chance of me ending it than her or him. I might be wrong, though, because they seem so close right now.

I appreciate your willingness to respond to our posts. Hopefully this thread will help you decide whether to hang on there with her, or to break up. I guess my advice would be to not decide yet. Wait and see whether you can stand to go along with poly the way she wants it.

This thread, and all the links are helping. Thank you so much, everyone.

 

[David1985]

You wrote this sentence that stood out for me: She likes me being sensual, soft, gentle and loving with her, because we are in love. Actually, do you think that maybe Lena likes sensual, soft, gentle sex with you because she genuinely ENJOYS that type of sex? Even if she also can't live without rough sex/being dominated, as well? Might Lena genuinely like you and like the sex she has with you, regardless of whether you two have some sort of magical love?

For me, sex goes hand in hand with love. I've never liked sex outside of a loving relationship. I know and accept the fact that others feel differently. Lena loves sex, and she can, and does separate the two things. The sensual, soft, gentle sex we have is all about the love we have for each other, lots of kissing, cuddling, and caressing.

Does she like me? I know she loves me. Does she like the sex we have? She does, no doubt about it.

The sex she had with Grant was all about fucking. It was about getting her needs fully met because I could not give her that. Things have changed now, though. She gets both things from him.

You write as if the way you have sex-- submissively, gently, without PIV, with small-penis-humiliation, with Lena using a strap-on on you, with Lena cuckolding you-is okay ONLY because you and Lena are in love.

No, I think it's ok because we both like it. I am submissive when it comes to sex. I always have been. Lena was able to make that work for her in a way that I wasn't able to make domming work for me. She loves teasing me about the size of my penis, or my PE, or other stuff, like using a strap-on on me. She has fun with it, and it is never that serious. She does it because she knows it turns me on, but also because it turns her on. She thinks it gives her power over me, and to a certain degree, I guess it does.

The cuckolding was initially about her being frustrated, but it became a lot more than that. It is empowering for her, but she also finds it very erotic. She loves me being her cuck. She enjoys having me hold her legs open for Grant, or holding her hand when he is making her orgasm, or having me go down on her after her bull has finished with her.

I think cuckolding can be very complex, and also extremely intense. It has given fuel to the relationship that the three of us have, and is a massive reason for why we are still so much into each other after three years.

I think that Lena thinks that sex with you is pretty darn hot! And yes, she also loves you. But that's not the only reason WHY she likes sex with you. You two are sexually compatible! Your kinks are aligned--she likes cuckolding you, you like being cuckolded. She likes dominating you, humiliating you, using a strap-on on you, and having gentle loving sex with you. And you like all of those things!

That's right. I agree.

Sure, it is true that Lena would not be happy having sex ONLY with you. She wants to be dominated herself. Which you understand, because you are submissive too, right? I understand that you struggled at first to become comfortable with accepting that Lena needed another lover. Of course it's hard to accept that your partner craves a kind of sex/kink that you can't give! But luckily for both of you, you turned out to be quite happy with cuckolding.

Me being turned on by it was a massive plus, because, yes, it was tough at first. But even if it wasn't something that turned me on, I know I would have been fine with it because I love her, and want her to be happy. So, if that is true, why can't I give her what she wants now?

I don't know.

Except that for you, the key to cuckolding has been the belief that Lena would never LOVE another man. She could fuck another dude all she wants, as long as you are the only one she loves, her "real" partner.

Yes, and now I feel that she loves him as much as me, or maybe more. If she loved me more, and she confirmed that, I could go forward. When I asked her who she loved the most, I was so expecting her to give an unequivocal "I love you the most." But she did not. She refused to answer. She is refusing to answer a lot of my questions.

I don't think you always have to be devastated. Ask yourself some questions. Do you feel that your kinks, the submission, cuckoldry, etc., are only okay because love is involved? What if your kinks are just the way your sexuality is? What if you didn't love anyone? Would you still think that being cuckolded is kinda hot? Being submissive, being humiliated, plenty of people find these things hot!

Yes, I find it all very hot. I don't think I could go back to vanilla hell.

If you left Lena, would you want another partner to have a similar dynamic with you? If so, how would you prevent her from falling in love with her bull?

Yes, ideally, even with a new partner, I would want to be her cuckold. I guess the risk a sub runs is that the woman he loves will fall for her bull. I cannot leave Lena, though.

Do you want Lena to dump Grant, and go seek out strangers to cuckold you? People she could never fall in love with? Would you be comfortable with that?

She has been with other guys since we have been together, but not many. One time was when we were on holiday.

I am happy that she is safe with Grant when I'm not there. I trust him. I know that although he has had some problems, he is a good person. So no, I don't want her to dump Grant. But I also don't want them to love each other. She always tells me that things are not fair on him as they are. I know that, and I care about him, but cannot help what I feel. It's all very tricky.

About Lena and Grant: do you want Lena to spend years fucking a guy (a guy that you actually like and are friends with) and NEVER fall in love with him? It's pretty rare for people to keep on fucking and never develop feelings for each other.

I know what you're saying, but they managed to do just that for years.

I am not trying to minimize your pain, nor would I want you to put up with a situation that is making you miserable. Just giving you some food for thought.

A lot of thought is going into this from all three of us.

It sounds to me like you and Lena and Grant were ALREADY kind of polyamorous, and that you were ALREADY fairly comfortable with it. You considered Grant a friend. You all seemed to hang out together and talk, at least. I don't think you thought of him as just a bull. You recognized that Lena had a history and friendship with him.

We have been kind of poly for a short time, and I am not comfortable with it. But he is my friend, and I love her, so I feel kind of stuck. I thought of Grant as Lena's stud and OUR friend.

It's just the idea of "love" that has turned a fun situation into devastation and jealousy for you. Lena doesn't seem to be treating you badly, or to be seeing you significantly less now, though. You are just freaked out because part of the cuckold fantasy was that you were the one she "truly" loved. And I know that loss is real. But if you want to stay with Lena, can you try to re-think it? (I'm not advising you to stay with Lena if you don't want to.)

I cannot pretend to her that it is all going to be alright. She wants my blessing and acceptance of this new thing, but I cannot even begin to hide how much I'm hurting at the moment.

I just think you are not quite grasping Lena's perspective. She's having hot sex with her two partners--just very DIFFERENT sex with each one. And she's always loved you, but now she ALSO loves her other partner.

I grasp it 100%, but I'm struggling to stay above water with it.

But, from what you write...I think you have the potential to make polyamory work, IF YOU WANT TO.

Thank you. I hope you are right, and I'm going to try my best to prove that you are.

Again, thanks to everyone for taking time out of your day to try and help me.

 

[fuchka]

When I asked her who she loved the most I was so expecting her to give an unequivocal, "I love you the most." But she did not. She refused to answer. She is refusing to answer a lot of my questions.

If a partner asked me that, I would refuse to answer, too. At least, I would refuse to answer the question directly. For me, it would be because I couldn't compare any two loves quantifiably. Not to say that love is equal, but when I love someone, I love them, particular things about them. It's like they fit into my heart a certain way. And if you believe that more than one person can fit into your heart, each in their own way, the question of whom you love more doesn't make sense. So if someone pressed me to answer that question, I'd explain why I couldn't answer.

I wonder if Lena feels this way too. You could ask her, maybe. It sounds like this is all new (and maybe unexpected) for her too, so maybe she doesn't know how to reply when you ask.

On the other hand, she maybe can answer that question, but doesn't want to (because she'd have to say that she loves Grant more). I imagine that would hurt a lot and undermine you feeling secure. I'm not sure I could continue a relationship where I felt demoted like that, unless my feelings for the other person had cooled off a bit, too.

But he is my friend, and I love her, so I feel kind of stuck. I thought of Grant as Lena's stud and OUR friend.

Well, this adds a difficult dynamic, for sure. Although Lena knew Grant first, you have progressed in your friendship with Grant, so he feels like a mutual friend, rather that Lena's friend alone. Also, the "her stud/bull" and "her cuck" language misses the fact that there's a particular relationship between you and Grant directly too, where he fulfils your sexual fantasies as much as he fulfils Lena's. That is, in that dynamic, Grant is your something, too. I'm not familiar with this kink very much, so maybe it gets talked about. It does sound really complex and layered.

I wonder if a small part of you feels the shifting of your relationship with Grant, and that's adding to your sense of unease. You are understandably focused on the future of "you and Lena" as a romantic couple, but there's the Grant stuff going on, as well. On a kink level, your kink partner (Grant) is being co-opted to a role you might not be comfortable with. On a friendship level, Lena wants to start dating one of your friends. There's some change associated with both of those transitions that could feel like loss or demotion. Uncomfortable, at least.

I may be way off base here, though!

Lena is buzzing and would be very happy at the moment if it wasn't for me putting a spanner in the works.

It's absolutely sane for you to take the time you need to feel your feelings and decide whether this proposed setup is for you.

When it comes to poly, this process is not "a spanner in the works." It is the works. Can we weave things together in this way? It requires an examination of the materials, testing, assessing compatibility. You're doing great.

I hope that Lena can see this exploration as essential for a strong foundation if the three of you are to continue in this way.

 

[Magdlyn]

This is a major shift to get your head around. You are coming from a couple-centric POV. Many, if not most swingers think this way. (I am going to group cucking and swinging together in this sense.) The MF couple is somehow sacred. They, and only they, may love each other. They do many things to prevent either member of the couple from falling in love with their other sex partners. I listed those techniques in my previous post.

However, bit by bit, in Lena and Grant's minds, the original couple of you+Lena is no longer "sacred," with your love for each other being the only love. That barn door has opened and the horse has run away long ago. You didn't notice it. Maybe they tried to hide it. It appears that Lena hid how involved she was becoming with Grant, to the point of meeting his kid and maybe liking the kid a lot.

In a way, her hiding her degree of affection for Grant and his kid was "cheating" behavior. But it's good that she has now confessed the (hopefully full) extent of her affection for Grant. Now you can give (or not give) your informed consent for a new shape of relationship.

I do hope this is the full extent of what Lena is feeling and wanting for her future! I hope she isn't falling out of love for you as she falls more deeply for Grant. I hope he has enough integrity, despite his former cheating on his ex-wife, to be upfront with you about his true desires and intentions going forward.

Another wrinkle in this being purely cuckolding, is that you are very involved with Grant. There are degrees of cuckoldry, as you know. You started out by Lena going to his place, and coming home and just telling you about what she did, to a shape where, not only does Grant come to your home, and you listen to them, you are actually in the room. And you do not just watch, you touch Lena. And you've just revealed that you are bisexual. You do "clean-up" of Grant's cum in and on Lena. You have threeway sex, in other words. You like that very very much.

So, you're bisexual. You like having sex with Grant. Maybe next you'll admit you handle his body, "fluffing" him, and that he also actually fucks you orally or anally, as well. Who knows? There is nothing wrong with that, by the way. Being bisexual is great. I'm bi!

Add to this, you like Grant, a lot.

There's a chance you may be falling in love with Grant too, making this a full triad. Sex+friendship often leads to love, not just for heteros, but for bisexuals, as well. Men often have a hard time admitting they could love another man, even if they can admit they "like cock." Men aren't supposed to have soft feelings for each other. But being horndogs is more okay, somehow (in our fucked-up patriarchy).

We can't force our emotions away. We can't repress or suppress them. They will show themselves physically if we try to tamp them down. The only way to deal with emotions is to feel them, ride them out, and then act on them in ways we choose, when we are fully aware what they are.

That is one reason I suggest therapy. If the only people you can talk to about all these complicated emotions and fears, are Lena and Grant, they are not the best people to be helpful objective observers and advisors. They are too close to it. And they have their own emotions and desires for the future in the mix.

Talking to us here, reading more about poly, is a good start, but it's no substitute for talking to a therapist who is experienced with LGBT and ENM issues.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from David1985):

"The one thing she did that really hurt me is the fact that she has started to build a relationship with his son. She never even told me that she had even met him until very recently, and they were introduced months ago."

Could you go into more detail about this? Why does her relationship with his son hurt you so much? Does it have to do with not wanting to be out to the world as poly? something else? a combination of things?

 

[dingedheart]

She thinks she knows everyone better than they know themselves.

On average, is she generally right or generally wrong? Specifically with you, how true is this?

The one thing she did that really hurt me is the fact that she has started to build a relationship with his son. She never told me that she had met him until very recently, and they were introduced months ago.

I imagine this feels like another yet another change in how information flows and what the relationship use to be-- a betrayal, in a sense. I’m guessing this type of stuff makes it hard to trust in this working out for how you once envisioned your life working out. It is another instance in whic the goalpost seems to be moving further back, not closer to.

It sure has changed. I guess I wanted things to stay exactly as they were. I was asking too much, and I guess I was more than a little naive, as well.

Did you ever discuss marriage, or those long-term-type plans?

What about her reading this thread? Is she aware of the forum as a resource for herself, and also to see what comments and knowledge have been shared, in regards to what you have posted?

 

[David1985]

On the other hand, she maybe can answer that question, but doesn't want to (because she'd have to say that she loves Grant more). I imagine that would hurt a lot, and undermine you feeling secure. I'm not sure I could continue a relationship where I felt demoted like that, unless my feelings for the other person had cooled off a bit, too.

I am starting to think that she loves Grant more than me, and that she is just not ready to tell me yet.

This adds a difficult dynamic. Although Lena knew Grant first, you have progressed your friendship with Grant so he feels like a mutual friend, rather that Lena's friend alone. Also, the "her stud/bull" and "her cuck" language misses the fact that there's a particular relationship between you and Grant directly too, where he fulfils your sexual fantasies as much as he fulfils Lena's. That is, in that dynamic, Grant is your something, too. I'm not familiar with this kink very much, so maybe it gets talked about. It does sound really complex and layered.

Well, it isn't something that has just developed. Lena wanted Grant and me to be friends from the start. She knew it would make our lives easier. Hers, especially.

I wonder if a small part of you feels the shifting of your relationship with Grant, and that's adding to your sense of unease. You are understandably focused on the future of "you and Lena" as a romantic couple, but there's the Grant stuff going on, as well. On a kink level, your kink partner (Grant) is being co-opted to a role you might not be comfortable with. On a friendship level, Lena wants to start dating one of your friends. There's some change associated with both of those transitions that could feel like loss or demotion. Uncomfortable, at least.

I like Grant. I care about him. But my only real priority at the moment is Lena and me. Maybe that makes me an asshole? Lena says it does. I don't know.

It's absolutely sane for you to take the time you need to feel your feelings and decide whether this proposed setup is for you. You're doing great. I hope that Lena can see this exploration as essential for a strong foundation, if the three of you continue this way.

After the last few days, I really don't think we are doing so great. Quite the opposite, in fact. In truth, I think they would be relieved if I left. As long as I don't question things, as long as I don't rock the boat, we are ok. But when I do, she really does not like it.