Being her cuckold is one thing, but I don't think I can cope with poly

However, bit by bit, in Lena and Grant's minds, the original couple of you+Lena is no longer "sacred," with your love for each other being the only love. That barn door has opened and the horse has run away long ago. You didn't notice it. Maybe they tried to hide it. It appears that Lena hid how involved she was becoming with Grant, to the point of meeting his kid and maybe liking the kid a lot.
Yes, the horse has bolted and there is no getting it back in the barn now. Did they hide it from me? I think they did. :( Lena didn't exactly lie by meeting his son, but why did she not tell me? Why didn't he? She likes the boy. He's a really nice kid, she says. She bought him Xmas presents and everything.

I do hope this is the full extent of what Lena is feeling and wanting for her future! I hope she isn't falling out of love for you as she falls more deeply for Grant. I hope he has enough integrity, despite his former cheating on his ex-wife, to be upfront with you about his true desires and intentions, going forward.
I fear that she loves me less than she did. She told me yesterday, during another fight, that she has lost respect for me. When I asked her to explain what she meant, she would not say, and once again, after she cooled down, she said that she did not mean it.

Another wrinkle in this being purely cuckolding, is that you are very involved with Grant. There are degrees of cuckoldry, as you know. You started out by Lena going to his place, and coming home and just telling you about what she did, to a shape where, not only does Grant come to your home, and you listen to them, you are actually in the room. And you do not just watch, you touch Lena. And you've just revealed that you are bisexual. You do "clean up" of Grant's cum in and on Lena. You have threeway sex, in other words. You like that very very much.
I guess I got too involved with him, both sexually, and as a friend. I should have kept a certain distance. But she would not allow it. Yes, she likes me doing clean up. But I am not bisexual, although I have no hang-ups about our relationship. And you're right. I like it very much.

So, you're bisexual. You like having sex with Grant. Maybe next you'll admit you handle his body, "fluffing" him, and that he also actually fucks you orally or anally, as well. Who knows? There is nothing wrong with that, by the way. Being bisexual is great. I'm bi!
Grant and I are comfortable being in close physical contact, but we never do anything together when Lena is not there. There would be no point. For me, and for Grant as well, it is all about Lena. Yes, sometimes she likes to see me suck his cock, but that is about me being submissive to her. He doesn't fuck me anally. :eek:

Add to this, you like Grant, a lot.
I do like him, and I know that it makes this all harder now.

There's a chance you may be falling in love with Grant too, making this a full triad. Sex+friendship often leads to love. Not just for heteros, but for bisexuals, as well. Men often have a hard time admitting they could love another man, even if they can admit they "like cock." Men aren't supposed to have soft feelings for each other. But being horndogs is more okay, somehow (in our fucked-up patriarchy).
I am not "falling in love with Grant." I would have no problem admitting it if I were. But thanks for making me smile. :eek:

Talking to us here, reading more about poly, is a good start, but it's no substitute for talking to a therapist who is experienced with LGBT and ENM issues.
Maybe I should give it some thought.
 
Re (from David1985):


Could you go into more detail about this? Why does her relationship with his son hurt you so much? Does it have to do with not wanting to be out to the world as poly? Something else? A combination of things?

Because she did not tell me about it for months.

Because they have told the child and his mum that Lena is his dads' girlfriend. That is two people she has told without even telling me she was going to. And I now know that her best friend knows, as well.

Also, she really likes the child, and I think that by having a relationship with him, it will make Grant and her closer, and that will make her want to have Grant get her pregnant, when she decides that is what she wants, especially after seeing what a good dad he is.

It's fucked up. I know that.
 
On average, is she generally right or generally wrong? Specifically with you, how true is this?

Don't get me wrong. She isn't someone who thinks she is smarter or superior to everyone else. She is very smart, but modest with it. She is caring and a good problem solver, so people often ask her for advice or help. I think the job she does helps her with this.

She is almost always right.

I imagine this feels like another yet another change how information flows and what the relationship use to be, a betrayal, in a sense. I’m guessing this type of stuff makes it hard to trust in this working out for how you once envisioned your life working out, another instance in which the goalposts seem to be moving further back, not closer to.
The goalposts move further away each day.

Did you ever discuss marriage, or those long-term-type plans?
She does not believe in marriage, and I'm not bothered about it either. Both of her parents have been married and divorced twice, and that has put her off. She is financially independent, and has no concerns about security. We did talk about having a child, though.

What about her reading this thread? Is she aware of the forum as a resource for herself, and also to see what comments and knowledge have been shared in regards to what you have posted?
She has not seen the thread, but there is nothing in it that I have not told her myself.
 
Can you actually articulate what it is about Lena loving Grant that is so terrible? Do you feel like by loving him she loves you less? I know you stated that you currently do think that maybe she loves you less, but based on reading this thread, it seems like any loss of feelings that she might have could potentially be more rooted in her frustration that your wants aren't aligning right now.

Normally I don't question whether someone is capable of being polyamorous, and we all say "It's ok to not want to be poly. You're allowed to want what you want," etc.

But you seem to actually enjoy the vast majority of things that come along with this V-shaped relationship. You like the sexual activities between the 3 of you. You actually enjoy spending time with Grant and are friends. You love Lena and want her to be happy. And since Grant sometimes comes to the house, you have the option of not losing as much time with her because you all can spend time together.

So you want all that stuff, only so long as it doesn't come along with "feelings." But what do feelings actually change? If Lena loves you and she loves Grant, and by loving you both, you get to have what actually sounds like a dynamic that you've grown to rather enjoy, is it possible that this is more just an internal issue of you struggling with the concept of a person being able to actually love two people? Do you feel like in order to love him it has to mean that she loves you less?

Now, I do think that you have some other big issues to address. Like, if you eventually want a kid with her, but she thinks she might want to have his child, that's a big deal and a game-changer.

Anyway, just food for thought.
 
Another thing to think about is how the sexual dynamic of the situation is deeply rooted in playing with shame and humiliation as part of a kinky dynamic, whereas, outside of the bedroom, you're all on a level playing field.

Or do you have a more submissive dynamic with Lena there, as well?

Is it possible that her having feelings for him, and openly displaying her affection in everyday activities feels like a continuation of being cuckolded to you? It's worth dissecting that in terms of your headspace, because I would imagine that in order for things to work, you'd have to be comfortable with knowing that the affection outside of specific cuckold play is not meant to have the same dynamic (so it sounds), and I'm sure that's easier said than done.
 
Because she did not tell me about it for months.

Because they have told the child and his mum that Lena is his dad's girlfriend. That is two people she has told, without even telling me she was going to. And I now know that her best friend knows, as well.

Also, she really likes the child. And I think that by having a relationship with him, it will make Grant and her closer, and that will make her want to have Grant get her pregnant, when she decides that is what she wants, especially after seeing what a good dad he is.

It's fucked up. I know that.

It's not fucked up to feel angry.

I think what you are trying to say is that Lena is taking you for granted, and always thinks that she knows what is best for everyone. But in this case, you have not agreed to practice polyamory, and she's going on with it anyway. And it bothers you that without even talking with you about it well yet, she's just going out in the world presenting herself as Grant's GF, and Grant as her BF.

So, where does that leave you? You used to be certain about your place in her life. Now you aren't certain at all. You feel replaceable. And her unwillingness to talk to you about your concerns, or to offer you reassurance, doesn't inspire confidence in you, for all that she says she can make it work for you. How is she going to do that when she doesn't even listen to you?

It seems to me she is expecting you to just roll with it, perhaps, as her submissive. And she's resentful, because she's used to you just rolling with whatever she says, going her way, not putting up resistance.

Because there's evidence of you not being happy about all this, she's flipping it around on you, picking fights, acting out, telling you she's lost respect for you, etc., which is wearying for you, when you are already run down and tired from rethinking your whole life, and debating breaking up with her, even though you love her, because polyamory is just not your scene.

Is this take anywhere close to true? :(

I cannot pretend to her that it is all going to be alright. She wants my blessing and acceptance of this new thing, but I cannot even begin to hide how much I'm hurting at the moment.
You do not have to pretend or hide.

If you are doing behavior (participating in poly when you want no part of it) and your choice ends up causing you lots of hurt, you could stop. You could decide to no longer do this.

I like Grant. I care about him. But my only real priority at the moment is Lena and me. Maybe that makes me an asshole? Lena says it does. I don't know.
It's ok to like Grant, and it's fine to love Lena. But somewhere in there, you have to love yourself, too.

I would suggest that your first priority could be your own well-being. That's not selfish, it's self care. Every person alive could be doing that. It doesn't make them assholes to care about themselves and their well-being, so they won't be hurting or end up dead.

If you are participating in polyamory when you don't really want to be doing that, because it goes against your own values, and you know it, you could ask yourself why you would harm yourself in this way. If you find that behaving this way is hurting you terribly, you could love yourself and stop doing it.

If you put your hand on the hot stove, you don't just say "Ow, this hurts," and keep your hand on the burner. You take it off.

After the last few days, I really don't think we are doing so great. Quite the opposite, in fact. In truth, I think they would be relieved if I left. As long as I don't question things, as long as I don't rock the boat, we are ok. But when I do, she really does not like it.
Never mind them for a minute. What is your truth?

Would you feel some relief if you stopped participating in this wonky poly thing with them? I know there would also be some hurt. But would there also be some relief? So your hurting can stop and your healing can start?

I am not going to make any decision, feeling the way I do at the moment. I want to be clearheaded, and be as close to certain as I can be before I make a call.
Sometimes one must first physically walk away in order for the mind and emotions to clear. You can't think right in the middle of wacky.

If you don't want to fully break up, perhaps have a trial separation, then. Or get some space another way. Take a vacation away from all this "noise." Do not do anything poly with them. Get your hand off the burner first, then try to think more clearly.

Only you can determine if you are approaching your limit of tolerance, or well past it. This situation doesn't sound healthy for you, long term, though. It is not a fence sitter.

Yes, I'm going against things I value for now, in the hope that we can make something work.
That's the problem. There doesn't sound to be any "we" in this, especially if Lena doesn't want to talk to you about your concerns, and work anything out. It's like she just expects you to just get with the program, lump-it-or-leave-it style. If that is what you are indeed facing, I'm very sorry. :(

Galagirl
 
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I've been skimming this thread from the beginning, but it just amazes me some of the advice you've gotten.

Lena cheated on you. Period. She acted outside of the agreements you'd made. Not only that, but she is not at all apologetic. She cheated on you, then steamrolled you, and now expects you to live happily ever after, as she makes her cheating partner her actual life partner, while your role is strictly cuckold/support.

Personally, I think you should work on plans to leave. She is not treating you as an equal with feelings. She's treating you as property. She's admitted she doesn't respect you (as much). It sucks, but sometimes love isn't enough.

Definitely take this as an opportunity to learn. See if polyamory is something that could work for you when it's actually honest and your choice. You obviously don't mind your partner being with others physically, so would the emotional side be that difficult if it were done respectfully?
 
Your role is strictly cuckold/support.

Personally, I think you should work on plans to leave. She is not treating you as an equal with feelings. She's treating you as property. She's admitted she doesn't respect you (as much). It sucks, but sometimes love isn't enough.

This was my impression, too. I refrained from commenting because I have no experience with this particular kink.

David, does she treat you respectfully and as an equal in other areas of your life? Or is she usually the decision-maker and you typically have acquiesced to her desires-- and now she's upset because you aren't acquiescing? I ask because, in my experience, there can be a fine line between healthy kink and abuse disguised as kink. From the outside it can be impossible to tell the difference.
 
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David1985 said:
"The one thing she did that really hurt me is the fact that she has started to build a relationship with his son. She never told me that she had met him until very recently, and they were introduced months ago."

kdt26417 replied:
Could you go into more detail about this? Why does her relationship with his son hurt you so much? Does it have to do with not wanting to be out to the world as poly? something else? a combination of things?

David1985 said:
"Because she did not tell me about it for months.

Because they have told the child and his mum that Lena is his dad's girlfriend. That is two people she has told without even telling me she was going to. And I now know that her best friend knows, as well.

Also, she really likes the child, and I think that by having a relationship with him, it will make Grant and her closer, and that will make her want to have Grant get her pregnant, when she decides that is what she wants, especially after seeing what a good dad he is.

It's fucked up, I know that."

kdt26417 says:
It sounds like you're getting railroaded into a situation where Lena is out as poly to everyone you know, and where Lena gives birth to Grant's next child. You are not being asked for your consent, instead you are being pushed little by little in that direction. I suspect she knows you would not give your consent if she asked, so she is trying to skip that step.

Nevertheless you love her, you are trying to adjust to the impossible reality she is imposing on you, so that you don't have to leave her. Honestly, I don't know what to advise. I think you are trying to figure out whether you can cope with poly.
 
I should clarify that in my opinion, Lena broke her agreements and lied by omission for a long time, and I agree that she's now railroading you by trying to make you the bad guy for feeling hurt by how poorly she has treated you.

But you've indicated that you don't want to leave her. You've also indicated that you actually like a large part of the dynamic that is going on.

I think you situation is super shitty and if you ultimately left, I wouldn't be surprised. But if you continue to want to have a cuckold-type relationship in the future, then I think you need to seriously consider what reasonable boundaries are. Anyone who continues to see someone sexually for a long period of time has a high likelihood of getting feelings. Thinking that's never going to happen is completely unrealistic.

It's ok to want to remain romantically exclusive with one partner. But if you want them to be able to sleep with others, then you likely both have to be onboard with things not being ongoing with the same person. And that style of constantly hunting a new Bull has to be something that you're both ok with (some might find it exhausting).

If you do want to be ok with your partner seeing the same person over and over and over again, well, the reality is that you need to be prepared that feelings are likely to happen. I'm not trying to justify what Lena has done. Her behavior sounds super shitty. What I'm saying is that I think you really need to take a pause and really consider what you want, what your boundaries are, and what is a realistic way to achieve those goals, if that is possible (or likely).
 
Over the last few months, I have been unhappy within our relationship, but I still believed that Lena and I would be together through life. Even when I started this thread, I was still hopeful that that would be the case. However, after the last few days, I believe that Lena and I might be finished.

For the first time, Lena and I are arguing and fighting a lot. Also for the first time, Grant and I have had a major bust up. Lena and I are also not being intimate with each other, another first. Although we've always live at her place, she has now moved out and gone to live with Grant. She says that this is temporary, and that she needs some space for a week or so, and that it is all my fault.

She insists that I have to trust her, and that she can make the three of us work. She also says, "We will cross that bridge when we come to it" a lot now.

However, she has decided that she wants a polyamorous relationship that is out in the open. She is not willing to budge on that. She says that Grant loves her and is willing to take a chance on it, so why am I not?

She has also admitted to me, after I bugged her about it a lot, that when she is ready to have a baby, she wants Grant to be the father, that he is a great dad, and that she is in the process of trying to build a loving relationship with his son, and that it makes sense, given that I am her cuckold, and Grant is her bull and dom, that he will be the dad, and that is why that she stopped me from having PIV sex with her.

I'm very hurt by all this, because at the time she made out that it was part of our kink, and that it made me more of a cuckold, which is what she liked and wanted.

She talks about still loving me very much, and I love her more than I've loved anyone in my life, but I can't go with what she wants. I just can't!

When she comes back, I am going to tell her that it's got to be Grant or me. I don't feel comfortable doing this, but now feel I have no choice.
 
I mean this kindly, okay?

Start looking for somewhere to live.
 
I think even if you do something so cruel, you're not going to like the answer.
 
I think she'd choose him because he's ready to go with the flow, although admittedly it seems that the direction of flow is in his favour right now so it's easier for him.

I think you should do what's going to make you happiest in the long run. Breaking up *now* would hurt and suck big time, but usually opens new doors in the future. Staying together hurts and sucks *now* but eventually a new normal eventuates that might not feel so awful. She could even be right.

How do you stay together? You roll with the changes. They've already happened and complaining about them won't change them back. You map out the future, not wish to turn back the clock.
 
I am so sorry, David. You are in a really tough spot. I agree with Evie. In your position, I would be looking for a new place to live, ASAP. Ultimatums don't work. On the slight chance she agrees to break up with Grant, she will resent you, and that will further erode your already strained relationship. More likely, she'll chose Grant and you'll be stuck looking for a place with no time to look.

You may want to find a therapist to help you through this transition, too, preferably a kink-friendly therapist.
 
Over the last few months, I have been unhappy within our relationship, but I still believed that Lena and I would be together through life. Even when I started this thread, I was still hopeful that that would be the case. However, after the last few days, I believe that Lena and I might be finished.

I'm sorry. It sounds like you are dealing with anticipatory grief, like, you know you want to break up, and you don't want to break up, but you know it's pointing there, and you are nearing acceptance. :(

Tread with caution though. If you make her pick you or Grant, what will you do if she says, "Ok, I pick Grant. Get out of my house," if you haven't planned for that eventuality?

She's already said she wants polyamory, and won't budge. I don't get why you would give her an ultimatum of "me or Grant." It's not like if Grant is gone you will do polyamory with her and other people. You just plain don't like polyamory. And that is ok. But the bottom line is, if you don't want polyamory, and Lena does, you are not compatible anymore.

I get why you'd be tempted to offer an ultimatum. You sound really hurt. She's not listening to you. It seems like you want to raise the volume to finally be heard. Perhaps you just want an answer, and for all this agony to be over.

But if you cannot afford to move right now, don't give ultimatums that may leave you homeless with no place to go. You are responsible for your own emergency preparation.

She says that this is temporary, and that she needs some space for a week or so, and that it is all my fault.

That is blaming you for having a preference of your own.

It is ok for you not to like polyamory. You don't have to. You don't have to be up for everything she's up for.

She doesn't want to accept this, and is acting out, cajoling you, trying to get her way. That is kinda mean.

She insists that I have to trust her, and that she can make the three of us work. She also says, "We will cross that bridge when we come to it" a lot now.

When someone runs right over you, doesn't listen, ignores your concerns, how does that inspire trust? :confused:

When there is no reasonable plan, and it's all fly by the seat of her pants, "cross that bridge when we get to it," I can't imagine that inspires trustworthiness either.

However, she has decided that she wants a polyamorous relationship that is out in the open, and is not willing to budge on that. She says that Grant loves her and is willing to take a chance on it, so why am I not?

If she cannot see you as a whole person, in and of yourself, that's her problem. You and Grant are different people. You do not both have to be up for the same things. Right now you are getting steamrolled by Lena, a lot. So no, you are not excited about it.

"If you really loved me you would do X...." is a mean kind of thing to say. Love is shared. It doesn't have to be "proven" all the time, and it isn't used as a means to make people do stuff they don't want to do.

If you don't want polyamory, you are no longer compatible with Lena. Love alone is not enough for deep compatibility. Sharing a kink is also not enough.

You don't have to bend yourself into horrible pretzels, clinging to something you don't actually want, just to be around her. You don't have to do stuff you don't like just to "prove" you love her. She can do polyamory with Grant and a new person. You don't have to be there in her poly network, just suffering.

She has also admitted, after me bugging her about it a lot, that when she is ready to have a baby, she wants Grant to be the father; that Grant is a great dad, and that she is in the process of trying to build a loving relationship with his son, and that it makes sense, given that I am her cuckold, and Grant is her bull and dom, that he will be the dad, and that that is the reason that she stopped me from having PIV sex with her. I'm very hurt by this, because at the time she made out that it was part of our kink, and that it made me more of a cuckold, which is what she liked and wanted.
Is this how you want to enjoy cuckolding? Is this the kind of kink pain you enjoy, or is this crossing the line into PAIN pain?

I think when this all blows over, if you like the cuckolding as a kink, you might learn about what are healthy kink boundaries, and what are not, before trying to have that dynamic with a new partner.

A dom exists only at the consent of a sub. There could be an agreed framework, like, "Within this scope you can do things to me. Outside this scope, no. This kind of hurt is ok, but that other stuff is harmful to me. "

She talks about still loving me very much, and I love her more than I've loved anyone in my life, but I can't go with what she wants. I just can't.....
It's ok that you have reached your limit. You can't go on and on just putting yourself in harm's way. You have to be able to say, "I love you a whole lot. But no, not even for you will I do or stay in stuff that harms me. I have to care about and love myself, too."

When she comes back, I am going to tell her that it's got to be Grant or me. I don't feel comfortable doing this, but now feel I have no choice.
You don't have to give Lena the power anymore, where she picks what happens to you.

You could decide for yourself what happens to you. If this situation has become awful to you--

  • It you can afford it right now, you could go find a flat and quietly move out while she's gone. Just stop participating here.
  • If you cannot afford it yet, you could decide you are going to leave (privately thinking it in your head), and start discreetly looking at rent/friends/family/shelters. Then quietly start saving for moving day. And when that day comes, be gone.
In your healing time, I would encourage you to find a kink-friendly counselor.

Galagirl
 
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Hi David,

I'm very sorry to hear that things have advanced to this point. I think Lena is now openly proposing things that you absolutely can't tolerate, and never could. I think your plan to give her an ultimatum is the only way you have left to try to save your relationship with her. I don't think you want to leave her unless you have made every possible effort, and the ultimatum is the last chance left to you. Just prepare yourself for the possibility that she might try to immediately kick you out of her place, and then you would be stuck with no other place to live. :(

I don't think you have any good options at this point. I'm very sorry.
Sympathy and regards,
Kevin T.
 
David, by and large I agree with the general consensus here. Lena is being unfair and selfish, and a bad Domme. A dom-ass, is what I call them.

I don't think what she is practicing is polyamory, after all. I don't think you necessarily dislike poly. Polyamory means having two or more loving relationships, with the joyful informed consent of all. You did not have all the information.

Recently, you got some shocking information. Lena has met and built a relationship with Grant's kid. Lena and Grant have told each other they love each other. They have told friends and family that they are bf and gf. Under close questioning, Lena stopped withholding the information that she wants Grant to father a child of hers, and to raise it. She stopped doing PIV with you just to make sure that, if she conceives, it isn't yours!

This is all very new to you. You are flailing. You are not being given time to absorb this information. You are being told to just agree to everything! That's crazy.

You are not being given the opportunity, as one adult of three, to consent (or not) to the current shape that Lena and Grant prefer. You are the one being given an ultimatum, namely: "Lena's way or the highway." It sounds like you do not consent to just going along with whatever the hell Lena wants. You have healthy boundaries. They are being crossed. You don't need to stay with these two. They are acting in selfish uncaring ways. You deserve better.
 
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