Hi there

[BigR]

Hi all, I'm BigR.

I'm new here. just signed up.
Before I start introducing myself let me start with an apology. Actually three apologies.
First, English is not my native language, so please excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes I probably have. It is not intentional.
Second, I may be out of scope for this forum. If something I write is inappropriate or offensive or making anyone feel discomfort or even simply doesn't belong here, please let me know and I will correct it asap. Again, not intentional.
Third, I initially thought this would be a short message, but it turned into a monster. I just wrote my thoughts without any screening. Apologies for not being more concise. If you were able to read though all of this I very appreciate it and thank you with all my heart, body and mind.

So where to begin?
I'm 40 years old and very happily monogamously married for 12 years + 3 heirs (9m, 7f, 5m).
Form the very beginning my relationship with my wife it was clear that it will be built on 6 pillars: love, respect, common interests, friendship, trust and freedom.
When we got married it was obvious that those pillars will be the foundations of the marriage. I think that the first 5 pillars should be very basic in any relationship. So I will expand a little about the last one.
When I say that from the very beginning freedom was a basic element in our marriage it means that we acknowledge that although we are now one unit with common interests and common budget and common house and common heirs - we are are also individuals with different needs. And we do have differences - I like quiet, she likes noise. I like nice stroll in the park, she likes parties. I'm not a very social guy, she likes people (the more the merrier). So freedom means that each one of us has the liberty to pursue happiness not only as a couple, but as an individual.
Freedom means my wife can go party without me and crash at some (male) friend's bed with my total support.
Freedom means my wife can plan trips abroad with her friends (mostly male) and I will stay with the children. Again - with my total support.
Freedom means my wife can have a sexual relationship with others if she desires, as long as it is not hidden (this is the trust pillar). My wife never exercised this freedom although I explicitly told her I will be fine with it (see the reasons below).

And what about me?
I have the same freedoms as my wife does. But for me those freedoms are not really relevant, because of my character. I like being at home with my family. I feel discomfort when I'm at a party with noise and other people. I don't have any hobbies that don't include my wife. I don't seek relationships with other people.
I guess that makes me a monogamous person. Since I married I sort of unconsciously disconnected my brain wires that are responsible for looking at other women in a romantic and/or sexual way. My interactions with women are always technical, functional and to the point. I don't flirt, I don't have female friends (nor male friends as I mentioned above) and generally I prefer to spend my time with my wife and children over any other activity I can think of.

What does it all have to do with polyamory?
Well, 12 years have passed. And we all know every good story has its villain.
Recently my wife started reading about polyamory on FB and even joined some groups. She asked me what I think of it and I we had a little discussion about the pros and cons of polyamory and what are the consequences for our relationship (since each relationship is different and there is no one rule that fits all). Currently she mostly reads and learns about polyamory and from what she tells me she finds it very appealing suited for the life style she wants. She told me she had a lot of encounters with friends where she didn't know what she felt, and after reading about polyamory she now knows she just had a new romantic connection with those persons. I asked her why she don't exercise her freedom till now and just have relationship. She told me there are two things that hold her back:

1. Asymmetry - As you probably understand I don't find any interest in creating more than one relationship. It is not a matter of will, my brain is just not wired for thinking romantically or sexually outside of my marriage. My wife is justly afraid of that asymmetry. Asymmetries are the root cause of many accusations that are thrown to the air while there is an argument between partners (real life examples that I heard, not necessarily in my marriage - "I make more money than you then why are you spending so much", I take care of the children more than you", "I cleaned the house this week and you did nothing", "you told me not to yell at the children but you do", "you tell me to leave the phone when I'm with the children but you don't"). Do we want to add a major asymmetry to our relationship that can be used in an argument and cause unnecessary heat? My wife said that suggested that I will find a way to have a relationship, even if it is artificially romantic, just to "release" her from the asymmetry problem. But I think this will cause even bigger issues.

2. What risk destroying something that is good? My wife and I agree that what we have now is good. We are new at this and we don't know how the other side will react in real situation. will we feel in real time what we think we will feel? If there a way to undo what was done if something went wrong?

This is when we started talking about it and we came to a point where we don't really know what to do and we are seeking advice.
There are many more issues, but I will leave it for another message (this one is overloaded).
Please help us, good people.


BigR

 

[HaloOnFire]

Hi, there! Welcome to the board!

The best advice I can give you is to read, read, read and discuss, discuss, discuss. And take this slowly. There is zero reason why you should rush headlong into something without contemplating all of the ramifications of that decision. This is journey after all, not a race to the finish line.

Be on the lookout for @kdt26417's Welcome Post. It's chock full of information. Pore over that slowly and you both talk about what you have read. I wish you good fortune in your journey!

 

[Darqon]

Hi BigR,

Welcome to the forums. I've only been here about a week myself. And much like you, still learning about the whole polyamory thing.
What my wife and I have been doing is basically what Halo said, "read, read, read and discuss, discuss, discuss".

For the asymmetry thing.. One of the more helpful perspectives I've read (I think it was in articles on dealing with jealousy) in my learning was to avoid focusing on the "You have X, so I should have Y", or conversely, "I have X so you should have Y too.". Instead each person needs to evaluate their individual needs, and if those needs are being met in the relationship(s), then the asymmetry doesn't matter. It seems like a healthy perspective to me.

Cheers!

 

[kdt26417]

Greetings BigR,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.
Here are some links/resources that to help you get familiar with poly:

• Poly FAQ
• Polyamory Websites
• Master Thread - links to other threads worth reading
• "December Bride" (1990 film).
• "Professor Marston and the Wonder Women" (2017 film).
• "Summer Lovers" (1982 film).
• "Three" (2010 film).
• "Opening Up: a guide to creating and sustaining open relationships," a book by Tristan Taormino.
• "Eight Things I Wish I'd Known about Polyamory (before I tried it and frakked it up)," a book by Cunning Minx.
• Glossary and Definitions
• What If I Get Jealous?
• What about the Kids?
• Poly Vignettes: Sharing Success & Happiness

You are wise to be cautious about moving into poly. Once you open that can of worms, there is no putting the lid back. Make sure poly is right for you.

I don't recommend that you try to establish perfect symmetry within your poly relationship. There are many mono/poly relationships out there that work just fine. It's enough to say, that you both have the *freedom* to date other people, if in the future that's something you want to do. That's the important symmetry that you need in your relationship. Forcing yourself to date, just because she's dating, will only lead to bigger problems, as you said.

Let me know if you have more questions. I'm glad you're here.
Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

Notes:

There's a *lot* of good info in Golden Nuggets. Have a look!

Please read through the guidelines if you haven't already.

Note: You needn't read every reply to your posts, especially if someone posts in a disagreeable way. Given the size and scope of the site it's hard not to run into the occasional disagreeable person. Please contact the mods if you do (or if you see any spam), and you can block the person if you want.

If you have any questions about the board itself, please private-message a mod and they'll do their best to help.

Welcome aboard!

 

[BigR]

@HaloOnFire @Darqon @kdt26417
Thank you for the warm welcome and for answering so rapidly (considering the time-zone differences we probably have).
I thank you for letting me to freely open my heart and mind. I need to vent a lot, sorry if it's too much.

Here are some links/resources that to help you get familiar with poly

Thanks a lot for this.

read, read, read and discuss, discuss, discuss

Yes. we are reading a lot.
The problem is the more I read the more I understand polyamory is NOT for me and the more she reads the more she understands polyamory is for her.

Once you open that can of worms, there is no putting the lid back

This is the thing that frightens me the most. There is no "undo" button.


In regular times my wife had a full schedule of parties, gatherings and other events. She is a people's person. She likes the new connections, the wives, the flirting, etc. So you will always find her jumping from circle to circle, talking to everyone. On the other hand, when I happen to be in such events (sometimes I will go with her) I feel most of the time just a stranger that doesn't belong, an alien that just landed and tries to orient itself (unsuccessfully might I add).
The Corona quarantines, restrictions and lockdowns were a perfect experiment that exposed the other side of the coin. Suddenly there are no parties, gathering are not allowed and all events cancelled. The quality time I spent with my wife in one year equivalents the previous 11 years all together. For me that time was just heaven on earth. I love talking with my wife - she is so intelligent and wise (you'll all fall for her as everyone else do). But she was just miserable. It was very hard to watch.
Thinking about it (it just occurred to me) the interest in polyamory began somewhat a year ago. Perhaps due to the Corona situation she was looking for something to fill the gaps. Perhaps this is only an interesting coincidence.
So you see how the asymmetry is quite obvious and fundamental for us.

And this is my big .
On the one hand - I know I am the happiest when I'm physically with my wife (I feel more relaxed, more protected, like a battery connected to a charger).
On the other hand - I know she is just blooming when she is around people and the party flashing lights are all around her.

In this relationship each side made some compromises.
My wife's dream is to live in the bug city, where all her friends are, where all the good parties are taking place a waling distance away. She gave up living in the big city for a small quiet village (one hour drive from the city), where we can afford a big house with big garden and quality life for the children and where I feel more comfortable (more quiet, less pollution and noise). She pays the price for her compromise by needing to drive or to take late night buses and the need to arrange sleeping at a friend's apartment. Of course, because the availability is lower she goes to less events than she would want.
My compromise if quite obvious - I spend less time with wife compared to what I want. I do it consciously, knowingly and most important happily. This times apart makes me miss her. And so after all these years - I still have butterflies when I see her, especially so charged after a good party or after a weekend somewhere in the world.

What I'm really trying to understand is what is the price I will pay if my wife will turn to polyamory. Since she works in shifts and she goes to a lot of events I already see her about half a week. Having new relationships will demand time. She will not have only one more, if I understand her correctly. I know about at least five people waiting for her decision. She will obviously start with one, but I assume eventually she will want more relationships.
Let me be very clear - if at any time I will have to choose between my happiness and hers the choice is very clear to me and I just want to understand the price so I can be emotionally prepared.



Here are a few quotes from a song, translated to English:

"You've built yourself a home and carved it in eternity.
I know you madam, not from yesterday.
Everything is true, but you have a contract with a big circus manager.
And for him you are practicing hard. making a show from the most secret things.
Because you are a clown, a daring fire swallower, a rubber-lady that was born for circuses.
And they take all your tricks, there is no safety net for the one who dares.
You know the price of the pirouette you are performing up there on the trapeze.
I'm here, I didn't change my address.
My life is a smocked cracked mirror.
When you'll need a shelter from the things you love I will be here on the old bridge."



BigR

 

[icesong]

1. Asymmetry - As you probably understand I don't find any interest in creating more than one relationship. It is not a matter of will, my brain is just not wired for thinking romantically or sexually outside of my marriage. My wife is justly afraid of that asymmetry. Asymmetries are the root cause of many accusations that are thrown to the air while there is an argument between partners (real life examples that I heard, not necessarily in my marriage - "I make more money than you then why are you spending so much", I take care of the children more than you", "I cleaned the house this week and you did nothing", "you told me not to yell at the children but you do", "you tell me to leave the phone when I'm with the children but you don't"). Do we want to add a major asymmetry to our relationship that can be used in an argument and cause unnecessary heat? My wife said that suggested that I will find a way to have a relationship, even if it is artificially romantic, just to "release" her from the asymmetry problem. But I think this will cause even bigger issues.

I think the key word here is *can* be used in a fight, not *will* be. I think every relationship *has* those asymmetries, the question is really one of "can you fight fair? can you discuss those asymmetries if they bother you without turning them into personal attacks?"

My compromise if quite obvious - I spend less time with wife compared to what I want. I do it consciously, knowingly and most important happily. This times apart makes me miss her. And so after all these years - I still have butterflies when I see her, especially so charged after a good party or after a weekend somewhere in the world.

What I'm really trying to understand is what is the price I will pay if my wife will turn to polyamory. Since she works in shifts and she goes to a lot of events I already see her about half a week. Having new relationships will demand time. She will not have only one more, if I understand her correctly. I know about at least five people waiting for her decision. She will obviously start with one, but I assume eventually she will want more relationships.

I think realistically, with a marriage and kids and a full-time job, there are only so many other things in your life you can maintain. I think personality wise I'm similar to your wife, preferring parties and people and things to do. But I realize that if I want to maintain the important relationships in my life - romantic and platonic - I need to spend time with those people and not just go-go-go all the time (in non-Plague world of course.) So just because all these people are interested in her doesn't mean she will necessarily be able to start or maintain relationships with all of them, or she'll have to choose to go to fewer events if she wants to make time.

Let me be very clear - if at any time I will have to choose between my happiness and hers the choice is very clear to me and I just want to understand the price so I can be emotionally prepared.

This... sounds like too much self-sacrifice. Yes, it's brilliant that you value giving her her freedom - but if she values you, she needs to meet your needs of time and stability as well. She *should* feel the same way about making you happy as you do her. I understand what you say about missing her when she isn't around and that making your feelings for her stronger, but there's a limit to how much you can and should stretch that, y'know? Like, I only see my Artist a couple days a week. If he wants to start another relationship, that's fine... but I'd be pretty unhappy if that time decreased, and I think that's a reasonable thing for you to say too, at least as far as the level things were at pre-virus.

 

[BigR]

@icesong
Thank you for your time to spent answering me. Very appreciated.

Actually, I had now a wonderful discussion with my wife about the things I wrote here and the answers I got from you and from others. I shared my concerns and she was very attentive. We both have some action items before we can decide our next steps.
I also read a wonderful thread from the list that @kdt26417 shared. I related to a lot of the things that were written there and took very good advices.
This is the thread - https://polyamory.com/threads/the-struggling-mono-thread.3989/#post-49126

 

[Magdlyn]

Welcome to the board!

You sound like an introvert, and your wife (she needs a nickname, like Butterfly) is an extrovert.

My partner Pixi and I are both poly. She's an introvert and so is her OSO. I'm an extrovert, but I don't have a real love relationship right now, except for Pixi. I do have a FWB or two, with whom I am finally reconnecting, now that we're all getting vaxxed.

Pixi gets energy from her alone time, but she adores both me and her bf. She does get her quiet time every day, since she's a night owl, and her bf and I are both early birds. Her bf is mono. He hardly dated before he met her. He even has a huge house all to himself (because he can afford it and) he likes lots of space around him even when he's alone! But he's happy to see Pixi half the week. Sometimes both he and I would like a little more of her. But I also like the breaks from her, since she's very energetic and has a kind of anxiety and ADHD thing going on sometimes, which can be distracting to my peace. She's always got a million projects going on, and sometimes I just need to rest. lol

Anyway, as you're finding out, some people thrive on being a mono and dating a poly person. You get more free time. I do find it a bit concerning that your wife is your ONLY friend (besides your kids). What would happen if (heaven forbid) she died? Who would support you then? To whom would you turn? Does your wife mind being your ONLY friend and support person? I'd find that an uncomfortable responsibility.

Has your wife not had sex with others during or after these parties and sleepovers? Has she had sexual or romantic feelings for others, but not acted on them? I am not sure what's been going on. You're not clear.

 

[BigR]

@Magdlyn
Thanks for reaching out and sharing your story.

I do find it a bit concerning that your wife is your ONLY friend (besides your kids)

Yes, That is very concerning. But this is a result of my character. I'm not social. I find it hard to interact with people and even harder to keep friendships and maintain them. All my interactions with other people are based on family connections, neighbors, professional colleagues and students I teach from time to time. That's practically it.

What would happen if (heaven forbid) she died? Who would support you then? To whom would you turn?

This is quite out of scope of polyamory, but I live in a small village (as I mentioned earlier) and it functions as a community, which is very supportive if necessary. And of course I have my family.

Does your wife mind being your ONLY friend and support person? I'd find that an uncomfortable responsibility.

She understands my limitations and social disabilities. I've tried many times before to have out-of-relationship activities, but never managed to hold it. I just keep trying. I'm taking some cooking workshops now. I hope this will improve my social skills.

Has your wife not had sex with others during or after these parties and sleepovers? Has she had sexual or romantic feelings for others, but not acted on them? I am not sure what's been going on. You're not clear

She always says that it is not the sex she is interested in, but the long term deep relationships with other people. Sex is just a part of it.
She is not going to an event with an intention to catch a guy and get into bed with him, if that is what you're asking.

 

[GalaGirl]

Welcome.

I will point out that your relationship is NOT asymmetrical. Because BOTH have the freedoms.

Just because you aren't using yours right now and don't want to have new relationships with new women? Doesn't mean it is unfair or asymmetrical.

She can't go use her freedoms and go have relationships with new men. You seem ok with it.

That's why you built this relationship on those pillars from the beginning isn't it? To give both of you space as individuals. So each one can go at their own speed/style.

It is also possible to be happy in a mono-poly relationship. Where she exercises her freedoms, and you choose not to exercise yours because you are happy how it is with just your wife as your sweetheart person.

I asked her why she don't exercise her freedom till now and just have relationship. She told me there are two things that hold her back:

Sounds like she wants some reassurance from you that if she DOES start exercising more of her freedoms, you really meant it. You really are ok with it.

My wife said that suggested that I will find a way to have a relationship, even if it is artificially romantic, just to "release" her from the asymmetry problem.

That makes no sense. There is no asymmetry here. You both have the freedoms.

Wife is afraid to exercise her freedoms and go first.

So to make her less afraid, YOU have to go go first? And find some artificial relationship with some lady? To make it "even" so wife can feel better?

What about the lady? Would she enjoy being used this way?

What about you? When you aren't even interested right now. You have to do all this extra work because wife doesn't want to do her OWN emotional management work?

Better if wife just confront her own fears and get on with it.

Maybe start small. Go have a date with a man she's interested in. Meet for coffee. Dinner and movie maybe. Hold hands. Hug at the end of the night.

Then see how that felt. Come home and see you totally being fine with it.

What risk destroying something that is good? My wife and I agree that what we have now is good. We are new at this and we don't know how the other side will react in real situation. will we feel in real time what we think we will feel? If there a way to undo what was done if something went wrong?

Which is why I suggest starting slow. Go have coffee. Dinner and movie.

Holding hands. Hugging. But not just jump into sex with new people.

Because if you discover any big upset after a small opening date or two? There is still time to slow down, or stop before it gets too big.

You can view it at a series of "small, careful openings" to give time to adjust along the way.

And not just fling open the the door wide and jump in all crazy.

You know what I mean?

Galagirl

 

[BigR]

@GalaGirl
Thanks for your thoughts.

will point out that your relationship is NOT asymmetrical.

Yes, we both have the freedom. But when only one side is exercising this freedom you get asymmetry (or whatever is the right term).

Sounds like she wants some reassurance from you.

I'm reassuring her all the time. We had a wonderful conversation today and I pointed out again that she shouldn't hold herself back just because she's afraid of my reaction. She is not sure what my reaction will be (and to be honest so am I) and she wouldn't take the risk, no matter how small it is, that our relationship will be compromised. She stresses the gain just doesn't worth the risk in her view. She prefers to wait till the risk of damage will be lower or the price of the damage will be lower. And this is part of me being here - to find out how I can make these lower in order to help her be as happy as possible.

That makes no sense.

Exactly ! for all reasons you wrote and more.

Maybe start small.

This is already done.
She is having coffee with others, going on weekends (even abroad), even sleeping in others' bed (no sexual stuff), flirting with others.
Needless to say (or maybe it is needed) she never delude anyone of her poly friends about anything. All of them know exactly where she stands.
Tomorrow she is meeting one of her poly friends for coffee. He has been expressing his interest in her romantically and sexually - she turned him down (at least for now) for the reasons I mentioned above.
Nothing of that technicalities bothers me. But all of that is still not a romantic relationship. all of that is not "amore" (love). I don't know how I will react to the real thing.

 

[GalaGirl]

Yes, we both have the freedom. But when only one side is exercising this freedom you get asymmetry (or whatever is the right term).

So you and wife both expect that both sides have to be actively dating a partner at the same time for it to be "even"?

Even though those dynamics would involve other people, and you cannot guarantee you will each find potential dates at the same time?

And you both expect that if you and a GF break up because of problems... wife has to break up with her BF then to keep it "even" at all times? Even though nothing was wrong between them? Or the other way around? Wife break ups with a BF, so now you have to break up with your GF then to keep it even?

She stresses the gain just doesn't worth the risk in her view. She prefers to wait till the risk of damage will be lower or the price of the damage will be lower.

That is her choice then. She chooses to wait.

Why do you have to be doing anything?

And this is part of me being here - to find out how I can make these lower in order to help her be as happy as possible.

You have done all you can. You tell her it's ok with you for her to exercise her freedoms. And when she does, you will see if you really ARE ok as you hope to be.

Nothing of that technicalities bothers me. But all of that is still not a romantic relationship. all of that is not "amore" (love). I don't know how I will react to the real thing.

Sounds like she is already taking small steps seeing other men. What would be "the real thing" to you?

That she starts calling one of them "boyfriend" instead of "poly friend?"

She says she loves the new BF person? They start sharing sex?

Something else?

Galagirl

 

[BigR]

So your expectation is that both sides have to be actively dating a parnter at the same time?

No, of course not. There will always be imbalances and counting notches is not something I would like to do.
The point is a poly-poly relationship has more symmetry than a mono-poly relationship.
Sure a mono-poly relationship can thrive. I'm trying to learn how make it thrive and I'm reading about it as we speak.
I really want her to be as happy as possible without compromising our relationship, or at least with a very small risk.

 

[GalaGirl]

What work is she doing to learn about how a mono-poly relationship can thrive?

That seems to be her hang up.

Galagirl

 

[BigR]

What work is she doing to learn about how a mono-poly relationship can thrive?

She reads and talks to members of a poly FB group she found.
She participated in a Zoom meeting and asked questions.
I'm exploring this interesting forum.
We share our findings, thoughts and insights.
Hopefully we can cover more ground like this.

 

[GalaGirl]

It sounds like you are both doing what you can then to educate yourselves.

I don't know if any of these help.

Practical Polyamory

Information on relationship skills, education and activism information related to the practice of polyamory; polyamory media resource.

www.practicalpolyamory.com

http://www.kathylabriola.com/system/app/pages/subPages?path=/articles

especially

kathylabriola.com - ARE YOU IN POLY HELL?

COMMON PITFALLS IN OPEN RELATIONSHIPS Many people who are in a primary relationship stumble into an outside relationship either by choice or by chance, and once involved, things can go beautifully or can go terribly awry. Here are some of the most common problems that develop and some ideas for

www.kathylabriola.com

Free Downloads from Opening Up – OpeningUp.net

The Most Skipped Step When Opening a Relationship

You’ve had hundreds of hours of discussions on what your open relationship will look like? Check!

medium.com

Galagirl

 

[BigR]

@GalaGirl
Thanks for the links. Added them to my reading material.