Sex and its status

D

dingedheart

Well-known member
Hi, I just thought of another question.

In the mono world, the intimate act of sex has sacred status. In the poly world, that sacred status is given to furniture, places, rooms, sexual positions or acts, shower stalls and even shoes. "You can wear my partner, so to speak, but I draw the line with my shoes, god damn it." It seems a bit crazy, particularly the sexual position one. Not real verifiable. Is this some mental game of replacement? Is there some need for sacred status to replace a perceived loss?

That said, I requested three rules. Yes, Redpepper, rules. I think I heard your teeth mash together. Sorry. And not just rules, but RULES. The good part is, there are only three.

Anyway...

Rule 1. Not at our house. Not because I place sacred status on or around the house, but because of the neighborhood we live in. We are very close with the neighbors, relationship-wise, not in proximity. Everyone notices everything. Kind of a fish bowl, so to speak, but in a good way. We all look out for each other. In the summer, on most Friday nights, my neighbor pulls old couches from his garage and people stop by for a beer or two. Adults talk/argue with the guy, who's a lawyer, and the kids run all over, just having fun. We have only one family out of ten or so that I'm indifferent to, and that's a choice they have made, to isolate themselves.

Rule 2. This is big: don't bring anything home. "I don't want to catch so much as a fucking cold. If I do, no one will be happy." Translation: your life and his will become extremely unpleasant. And as happiness is the stated goal, then everybody better be very fucking careful. No pun intended. Pretty easy to remember.

Rule 3. He is not allowed to drive my Mustang convertible. It took my dad and me three summers to restore, so I get to say who sits in or drives that car. We've got a fleet. Take something else. The thing is, that car is known in the community. I don't want somebody to say, "Hey, I saw your car, the driver didn't look like you." (Maybe I'm being a dick about this, as I have let our 17-yr old neighbor use it to take out his new girlfriend. That was such a cool moment, for both him and me. He really really appreciated it, and it was my idea. I guess I don't care if they fuck in it, just do it in the garage. I don't think she/they know this, however. Don't think I'm going to share that, either.)

Well, I look forward to reading why I'm wrong. haha

Thanks,
D
 
dingedheart said:
In the mono world the intimate act of sex was or has sacred status. In the poly world that sacred status is given to furniture, places, rooms, sexual positions or acts, shower stalls, and even shoes.
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Really?! Who says?

If you're speaking of your own rather uninformed opinion, fine. But most of the rest of us find this notion insultingly uninformed.
 
Favour to ask

dingedheart said:
Yes, Redpepper, rules. I think I heard your teeth mash together. Sorry. And not just rules but RULES.
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Easy on personalizing your posts, my friend. There is no need to single out individual posters. It gives the impression you are looking for a fight. People on here come to share experiences and advice out of caring.

Dingedheart, I can tell you are hurting pretty badly, and definitely nowhere near ready to go down the poly path, my friend. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting this.

The hate/anger and resentment in your words indicate a very open wound, and I feel for your pain. Please take a breath, relax and try to express yourself without challenging everyone who actually wants to help.

You're not wrong about anything. You're pissed off about everything. I hope you gain some balance. Definitely express how torn apart you are to your wife. Take care.
 
DingedHeart, about my above comment, I'm all good about your expressing your pain, fear, or whatever, but it'd probably go over better in this poly forum if you did so without appearing to badmouth the poly folks here. For most of us, sex is just as sacred when shared among several as when shared with any single one. Polyamory is, after all, a love-style, not merely a sex-style.
 
A word of advice from someone who has been there, if I may. (I've been married, not married, monogamous, polyamorous, jealous, open-- the whole shebang.)

Before you make "rules," try and figure out your needs. If you know what you really need from a relationship, it's much easier to figure out what you can and cannot accept. Sometimes a need can be met by much less than what you may think (hence, the "not in my shoes" edict), and sometimes, a need is not really much more than an "I want!" that comes from a place of insecurity and fears that need some personal growth, or work, that has nothing whatsoever to do with your partner.

A little less judgment and a little more openness work very well in the poly world (heck, in any world). For that matter, what other people find necessary or scary is really not our business to judge.
 
First of all, I hear that you are hurting. I get that.

Next, are you fucking kidding!? I've heard this kind of tone from Mono, so don't think what you say, or the way you presented it, is shocking to me. Yours is a typical response from a man that is not polyamorous trying to understand his partner, who is.

Your "rules" are fine at this stage in your journey. Quite valid. I would suggest, however, that they are a given to your partner at this point, as she knows you, what has transpired, and your home situation well enough not to go there. I would think that her feelings and yours on the matters you laid out would cross each other out, or at least they should, as the rules you lay out make perfect sense for the beginning stages of a poly relationship. That being said, I am not her and I can only speculate.

Eventually things soften and become boundaries for new-to-poly folk, as do primary/secondary relationships, and a bunch of other stuff too, that isn't necessarily in need of writing out here. We all start somewhere, and having rules is a typical start. At least it's something to be in control of.

I would suggest that you look long and hard at whether you are done with her and your life with her. Do your best to empathize with what she might be going through, go over what she has said are needs for hers, ask her for answers to questions not brought up yet, give her a chance to state her case one more time and then decide. If you, at your utmost core, still love her enough, start finding a way. Most of us here have done that and are working on it. You are not the only one.

(I didn't actually grit my teeth. I smiled and shook my head in relation to conversations I've had with Mono. I've been here too long, and read too much, to invest in anyone beyond writing a post that may or may not help. All I do is offer my thoughts and use the wisdom I have gained.

I used to take it all in. Now my friendship investments emerge out of rubble here and I have no expectations of being liked or appreciated. I just continue supporting and empathize as much and as best as I can. I don't become overwhelmed by every slam and disagreement that comes my way. I am willing to talk about just about anything, but I am only willing to become emotional when I have a relationship with someone. The only time I become emotional in a negative way on here is when I am affected by my own life, not the person who pushes me. Hope that makes sense.
 
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Dinged, you're entitled to make whatever rules, boundaries, guidelines, or whatever else you want to call them in your own relationship. What does your wife say about your needs? Is she comfortable with them? If she is, I fail to see a problem here at all. What works for one constellation may not work for another.

As for sex not being special if it's being shared with more than one person, I assure you that it absolutely is. Usually the boundaries around rooms and shoes and whatnot come from a totally different place than from feeling a stronger attachment to those things than to a partner and what they do. Sometimes it's just something that has to be spelled out in polyamory, because it's not a situation that's going to come up otherwise. For example, I'm not comfortable with knowing that people are having sex in my house when I'm home. This doesn't just apply to my husband and his gf, but to anyone, but mostly with other people it's just not going to happen (or at the very least, it would be considered rude).

You seem very angry. A lot of people are when they start out on this journey. A lot of the time it's growing pains to get to a new normal.
 
dingedheart said:
In the mono world, the intimate act of sex has sacred status. In the poly world, that sacred status is given to furniture, places, rooms, sexual positions or acts, shower stalls and even shoes.
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We really don't have rules, and we have been practicing polyamory over 15 years. I am monoamorous and she is polyamorous. She only has one boyfriend at a time (by her choice, not a rule) and they tend to last a long time (years).

I would never tell her how to have sex, where to have sex, and so on. Her relationship with her boyfriend is between them and is separate from our relationship. I do not interfere. I do not say you do that for him and not me. He has needs just like I do. She does a pretty good job with time management. Sometimes she spends more time with me, sometimes with him. When she spends time with him, most of the time she spends the night over his house, sometimes for days.

They are free to have sex in our house. Sometimes we have threesomes, or if I come home and they are going at it, I might watch.

She has a key to his house and he has a key to ours. Sometimes the three of us go on vacation together. Sometimes she goes on business trips with him. My wife and her boyfriend are fluid-bonded.

Other than a request for safer sex, I think it’s wrong to limit your partner and their lover sexually. "You can’t have oral, you can’t kiss, you can’t do this position or that position," is a bunch of bull, in my opinion. If you're just swinging, it's okay to limit sex acts, but if it's a truly loving relationship, it's just wrong.
 
neohio44122 said:
We really don't have rules. [snip] Other than a request for safe sex, I think it’s wrong to limit your partner and their lover sexually. You can’t have oral, you can’t kiss, you can’t do this position or that position is a bunch of bull, in my opinion. If you're just swinging, it's ok to limit sex acts, but if it is a truly loving relationship, it's just wrong.
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This is your opinion, neohio, and, in my opinion, it is a good idea to say so, as to others this could come across as a judgment and disrespect of a person's process and their journey. I realize that the original post is judgmental also, but is it really going to help to judge back at them?

You say you have been at this for 15 years. I have also. I know what you are saying. I understand and can relate. I just think that it is really important for us polyamorous old-timers to be patient and empathetic to those that are starting out and doing things differently.

I wonder how you felt the first time your wife went out to sleep with someone else. How did you feel when she told you that she was poly? What is your story of getting to where you are now? To me, hearing about that is how people can learn and grow and realize that they too can figure out what works for them, rather than telling people you think they are wrong.
 
dingedheart said:
In the mono world the intimate act of sex has sacred status. In the poly world, that sacred status is given to furniture, places, rooms, sexual positions or acts, shower stalls and even shoes. "You can wear my partner, so to speak, but I draw the line with my shoes, god damn it." It seems bit crazy, particularly the sexual position one. Not real verifiable. Is this some mental game of replacement? Is there some need for sacred status to replace a perceived loss?
Click to expand...

WHAT? Where on earth did you get that? The sanctity of sex (or its lack of sanctity) is no more and no less clear and concrete for poly people than for mono people. Polyamorous people are just more honest and open about that fact, and about the fact there is a wide variety of opinions and feelings on this and most other subjects. Before you seriously argue the sanctity of sex in the monogamous mind, I invite you visit any bar, lounge or night club around closing time.

dingedheart said:
That said, I requested 3 rules. Yes, Redpepper, rules. I think I heard your teeth mash together. Sorry. And not just rules, but RULES.
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Really? Did you really intend to snark personally on Redpepper, someone with extensive life experience in an area you are struggling with, who has extended to you the benefit of her hard-won wisdom, for no reasons other than her compassionate nature and that you asked?

I hope I have read you wrong. It is such an unwise course of action to disrespect the people whose help you have sought.
 
River said:
For most of us, sex is just as sacred when shared among several as when shared with any single one. Poly is, after all, a love-style, not merely a sex-style.
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Well said! Sex within my triad is just as "sacred" as any monogamous couple's sex out there. We're in love, we're faithful, we don't cheat.
The only difference is the number of people involved. That's it.
 
Very misunderstood

WOW! I really didn't see this coming, like so much else in my current situation.

I was not trying to be snarky at all. It was lighthearted humor. I thought I had read several posts in which Redpepper said she dislikes the concept of rules. I thought she said that rules are too rigid and she prefers the use of boundaries. As these rules, so to speak, were put in place one month before I found this site, I guess it just highlights another mistake.

My three rules, as they are, were put in place with my kids in mind. Especially in this early stage, just having the bf pick her up would cause a shitstorm I'm not ready to handle, let alone some type of sleepover. My son would either lose his mind, or try to bug the room to hear what was being said. I've spent thousand on therapists for my wife and me. I don't want to do the same because my son watches too many spy movies, and saw something he shouldn't have. My kids are a girl, almost 13, and a son, 10.

I see now I was being way way way too familiar, as a new person here. I have tried to keep a sense of humor when sometimes things aren't all that funny right now. Now I know how Yakov Smirnoff feels. Oops. I hope I didn't piss off the Yakov fans. With my luck, he's a member. Very very sorry to all. Even Yakov.
 
We have all had the problem with humor or lighthearted teasing not translating well when written online. The comment about sex and poly vs mono was probably what set most people off. It definitely did not come off as lighthearted and was a bit offensive.
 
If I may offer another viewpoint, Redpepper is a very frequent poster here. She takes her role very seriously, and, in my opinion, can kind of be perceived as our "board mother."

She does have a certain way of practicing polyamory. She is poly-fidelitous. She does make statements about boundaries vs rules quite a bit, so I can see where a newbie would be a bit leery of even using the word rules on this board!

As Redpepper knows, I have felt a bit judged by her in the past, because I have some relationships that aren't full-on committed live-in lovers. She has an almost knee-jerk reaction to "casual" sex or lovers, because of issues from her own past (that I do not relate to). I called her on it, and I think we are cool now.

That said, I read the humor in you calling her out on using the dreaded "rules" word.
 
Hey, welcome. Don't get discouraged. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and I personally wasn't offended by your comments. I hope we don't have to walk on eggshells here, but you might have to grow some thicker skin. There's lots of wisdom here, and I, for one, am humble enough to take my knocks, as a newbie.

I found it hilarious that you defended your right to your car! No one better drive that car, dude. I can't even imagine my boyfriend driving our crappy van without my husband's okay. I mean, that's only common courtesy.

I think you're nice. Stick it out. You're welcome here. This is a great bunch of sassy people. :)
 
My turn now, if I may. It's not so much that Redpepper (and others) "dislike the concept of rules," it's that she (and others) see "rules" as something that people do because they haven't processed and overcome the underlying reasons for why the rules seem necessary.

You say you're trying to protect your kids. I don't think that what your wife is "allowed" to do with her boyfriend has anything to do with "protecting the kids." I think it has to do with protecting your ego. If you and your wife are on the same page as far as what's in the best interest for your family, you shouldn't need "rules." What you should do is get on the same page with each other as far as what you both believe to be in the best interest of your family. Then "rules" would not be necessary, because you trust each other to make the right decisions. Then "rules" are upgraded to "boundaries," where you don't have to make a checklist of specific things she "is allowed" and "not allowed" to do, but rather instead, you trust her to think things through, and say to herself, "Is this in the best interest of my family? Yes; no; maybe I should talk about this with my husband; this is something I haven't anticipated; etc."

Doesn't that have a better mouth-feel than, "Blargh! Your boyfriend can't drive my sporty sports-car, because what if the neighbors find out?"

(IMO, if you don't trust someone, you shouldn't breed with them, but just because I haven't "bred" with anyone, doesn't mean I don't know anything about trusting someone. Kids merely provide a convenient excuse for a lot of things people don't feel like confronting.)
 
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Smiling in appreciation at NeonKaos.
 
dingedheart said:
WOW! I really didn't see this coming, like so much else in my current situation.

I was not trying to be snarky at all. It was lighthearted humor. I thought I had read several posts in which redpepper said she dislikes the concept of rules. I thought she said that rules are too rigid and she prefers the use of boundaries.
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It's okay. It wouldn't be the first time (or the last) that there was something typed that was misinterpreted. The good news is you were being playful, appearing snarky, to one of the nicest, most forgiving and easygoing people on the board! I don't really see any bad news. :)

So, my suggestion, use the smilies on the right of your posts. They help suggest the mood of your typing. Also, it's sometimes helpful for others who are reading if you put j/k (just kidding) or [sarcasm] around things so that they can gauge what mood you were in when you typed. Common mishap on the net. Welcome to the forum. ;)
 
dingedheart said:
WOW! I really didn't see this coming, like so much else in my current situation.

I was not trying to be snarky at all. It was lighthearted humor.. I thought I had read several post in which redpepper said she dislikes the concept of rules. I thought she said that rules are to rigid and she prefers the use of boundaries. As these rules were put in place one month before I found this site, I guess it just highlights another mistake. My 3 rules were put in place with my kids in mind. I've spent thousands on therapists for my wife and me. I don't want to do the same because my son watches too many spy movies, and saw something he shouldn't have.

I see I was being way too familiar as a new person here. I have tried to keep a sense of humor when things aren't all that funny right now. Now I know how Yakov Sirmnoff feels. I hope I didn't piss off the Yakov fans. Very very sorry to all. Even Yakov.
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And I would like to apologize for my part of the misunderstanding, dinged. I hope it won't discourage you from being part of the community here.
As you can see, we care about each other, and stick up for each other. Peace, brotherman.
 
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