How do I feel ok with my wife opening our relationship?

[GalaGirl]

She says it's always been in her, but she was mono for me, outside of a few slips during our marriage.

No, she chose to practice monogamy for HERSELF. She also chose to step out/cheat FOR HERSELF. Her choices belong to HER.

If she's claiming now that she was doing monogamy "for you," I would tell her "nope," because that seems to lead to some expectation that you will now do polyamory "for her," to be "fair" or something. It's not actual logic. It's kind of manipulative. Taking turns being "the miserable one" might be a "fair" kind of misery, but it's misery all the same.

You are under NO obligation to agree to practice open marriage with her, even if she suggests it. She can't just "decide" to open the marriage. She can decide SHE is not going to do monogamy anymore. But she can't make YOU choose to practice open marriage with her. If she's dating already without you being on board or really consenting, she's just cheating out in the open now. Or it's poly under duress, because you didn't really consent joyfully. You just did it from fear.

None of this is great or healthy. It doesn't matter if other people have managed it without "drowning." YOU are drowning. You need to address YOUR situation.

YOU are in charge of your own choices. I get the choices seem stinky right now, because you don't want to do open marriage like THIS, and you also don't want to break up.

I know you have your counseling appointment soon. When is it?

I'm hurting her with how much it's hurting me.

No. She's trying to make a unilateral decision for the couple, and you're hurting as a result of that.

If watching how her choices affects you makes her feel bad, because she thought you'd just go along with a smile on your face, then she's just feeling bad on her own. It's not "because" of you. I mean, who did the provoking behavior in the first place? She did.

You two sound way too tangled up in each other and all convoluted, kind of like you don't know how to have your own feelings, your own thoughts, etc., independently of the other one.

Neither one of you should be doing things you don't really want to be doing.

I strongly encourage you to tell her, "Nope, I'm not making any decisions until I talk to my counselor."

You might even think about a trial separation, and then attending counseling and dating on your own, monogamously, NOT open or poly.
That would be fair. She'd be off doing her thing. You'd be doing your thing.

You could talk to your counselor about this.

GG

 

[Tinwen]

I'd like to acknowledge that monogamy might have been a true struggle for your wife. When she married you, perhaps she wasn't even aware polyamory was an option. Perhaps she made monogamous vows for the wrong reasons.

However, I agree with Galagirl that that doesn't mean you owe her to try her way. At all. It's just that you both feel crappy with the incompatibility that has surfaced now.

She also should feel crappy, because she's doing this in a very reckless and inconsiderate way, rolling all over you. If she wanted to open the marriage, the two of you should have done at least a year of talking, reading, couple's therapy, to determine the best course of action before she did any anything at all. Not like just going off fucking people and telling you you aren't "ready." That is not the love she vowed to honor.

You admitted you used to be an alcoholic in the other thread. In case this is not obvious, whether you end up divorcing or enduring, LINE UP YOUR SUPPORT (tell family, friends, your support group, your therapist what you are going through). In a crisis, you're in danger of relapse, so don't try to carry the pain all alone.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Tony,

There must be some way you can be happy with this, going back to mono is not an option and you deserve to be happy. Would your wife let you participate in the poly? like if you could participate in the play? That might be one solution. What else can you think of that might be a plus for you in this situation? It seems to me that you and your wife are perfect for each other in every way other than this one little thing. Only poly isn't so little.

Don't drown, keep swimming. Tell your wife that she needs to let you participate in the play, in order for you to be happy. Explain to her that you are ready to do that. You agreed to let her be poly, now she should reciprocate and agree to let you be part of the play. I hope the two of you can work this out. I can see that leaving her is not an option. There must be some other way to work this out.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[EldritchDucky]

to use the restroom

Someone explain to me how using the pretense of going to the bathroom and then leaving without being clear that’s what you’re doing and why you’re doing it is somehow not indirect, passive, and/or passive-aggressive?

 

[Evie]

Is that the agreement SB made with BH, Kevin? That he was included in your sexy times/play with her?

No-one needs to let a third party be a part of their intimacy.

 

[Magdlyn]

Someone explain to me how using the pretense of going to the bathroom and then leaving without being clear that’s what you’re doing and why you’re doing it is somehow not indirect, passive, and/or passive-aggressive?

haha I'd get up, not pay the bill and leave without lying about having to use the restroom. I'd be clear that I was leaving because we were on date and she wasn't having the manners to actually be present. But dinged will be dinged...

 

[GalaGirl]

Tell your wife that she needs to let you participate in the play, in order for you to be happy. Explain to her that you are ready to do that. You agreed to let her be poly, now she should reciprocate and agree to let you be part of the play.

Nope, she does not "need" to do anything. Tony442nm is in charge of his own choices. Wife doesn't get to say what Tony does. If he feels ready to date other people, he can do that. Wife certainly is.

What does "let you be part of the play" even MEAN?

• "You are poly dating. So I decided that I'm going to poly date too. Open on both sides is fair"-- that is reasonable. Both sides could be open. Both spouses could date other people as they see fit, and not like it is only open only for Wife. If that is what you mean by "part of the play," then I agree. Both sides could date.
  
  
• "I'm letting you date and share sex with X, so now I expect you to let me play too. I expect group sex with you and X"-- that is NOT reasonable. It assumes X doesn't even get a voice in it, and Wife would be the sex dispenser/gatekeeper, and that Tony442nm is entitled to or owed sex by people. If that is what you mean by "part of the play," I do NOT agree.

If it already feels this bad, it is possible that engaging in group sex with wife and X might make it WORSE. It might not bring any feelings of happiness or feelings of inclusion. It might bring even more feelings of exclusion, being taken for granted, etc.

It could be that Tony watches Wife being pleasured by someone else, hears the noises, sees the faces, is given some token attention, and then is forgotten in the corner.

Sometimes group sex goes well, and sometimes it just does NOT. It's a gamble. Not everyone is good at sharing group sex so that all participants have a nice time.

Talk to your counselor, Tony442nm. You do not have to do ANYTHING you don't want to do. Definitely do not do anything that would make things worse or ding your mental health.

GG

 

[EldritchDucky]

haha I'd get up, not pay the bill and leave without lying about having to use the restroom. I'd be clear that I was leaving because we were on date and she wasn't having the manners to actually be present. But dinged will be dinged...

Ah, well if that’s dinged, dinged shouldn’t be anyone other than dinged.

I was just wondering because I’ve heard of this strategy being deployed before and I always found it rather counterproductive and self-gratifying. Maybe that’s the point?

 

[dingedheart]

haha I'd get up, not pay the bill and leave without lying about having to use the restroom. I'd be clear that I was leaving because we were on date and she wasn't having the manners to actually be present. But dinged will be dinged...

I was thinking of avoiding a scene and long discussion in a public space, and actually having to return home in the same vehicle.

But you’re right-- have a staff member go by and tell her that you’ve changed your mind about the date, and covered the bill.

 

[dingedheart]

Ah, well if that’s dinged, dinged shouldn’t be anyone other than dinged.

I was just wondering, because I’ve heard of this strategy being deployed before and I always found it rather counterproductive and self-gratifying. Maybe that’s the point?

Counterproductive to what?

If there is/was an ongoing issue of not being present during dates or designated “time,“ and it’s been discussed/noted/highlighted, then this response, IMO, might be the cold water in the face to grasp the seriousness of the behavior and the value I place on my time and/or “date time."

I’ve had been on the receiving end of a “going through the motions“ anniversary dinner. Long story short, I planned/arranged for a reservation at a Michelin-rated restaurant which had long been a favorite of hers/ours. Things quickly devolved on the car ride there, because of the distance and traffic and their style of service, it was going to get us home at 11:30 or midnight… god forbid. I turned the car around and went to a cheap Chinese place and we ate in relative silence and were back the house in an hour 20. Happy anniversary Date ended when we hit the driveway.

 

[EldritchDucky]

Counterproductive to what?

If there is/was an ongoing issue of not being present during dates or designated “time,“ and it’s been discussed/noted/highlighted, then this response, IMO, might be the cold water in the face to grasp the seriousness of the behavior and the value I place on my time and/or “date time."

I’m popping up in this discussion for reasons I wasn’t immediately aware of. On reflection, I think I now know.

Do not expect people to read your mind. Even if you’ve communicated this before. They still can’t read your mind. They will still rely on their own brain to determine what went wrong, and if they get the wrong message, that’s on the person who intentionally avoided communicating in the present.

Whatever the reason, if they aren’t getting it and they’re still disregarding your need for presence, walking out like that is more likely to push their abandonment triggers. I do not expect them to get the point that someone else is hurting if they’re dealing with their own immediate hurt. That’s why it’s an ineffective play.

Unless I’m seriously misreading what you’re advocating, “cold water” power plays like this cause breaches and they’re immature. This sounds like disordered behavior of the Cluster-B variety. This sounds like a tired old dramatic script out of Teen Cosmo.

Ask yourself if you’re trying to resolve a conflict with a person you love or punish a person you hate. Do you feel entitled to punish? Will that make you feel better? I think it’s more likely to end the relationship and no one should be surprised if that’s the result. Maybe ending the relationship IS what you want and will make you feel better, in which case, I can imagine more mature ways to approach it.

 

[dingedheart]

I’m popping up in this discussion for reasons I wasn’t immediately aware of. On reflection, I think I now know.

And what is that exactly? Care to share?

Do not expect people to read your mind. Even if you’ve communicated this before. They still can’t read your mind.

One of the super-big poly mantras is communication. In my comment, where you only quoted the part about getting up to use the bathroom, I suggested having a BRUTALLY honest conversation/discussion on the personal boundaries and parameters of interaction. Feel the need to text other partners during date night or our time, I’m out. Think you’re being generous and doing me a favor by having sex, don’t bother. Horny from sexting other partner and want to use me as a stunt dick, not interested. Topic of safe sex practices... testing and labs, condoms/birth control, and consideration of accidental pregnancy. Basically laying the new foundation to the new transitioning relationship or marriage.

So, no mind reading involved. Expectations are, or should be, more or less set and agreed upon. AND under the situation the OP finds himself, making specific stipulations on what he’s not willing to tolerate seems more than fair. NRE IS a real thing. Loads of threads here have covered the topic in general, and hundreds, if not thousands, of threads have covered specific thoughtless acts brought on by NRE. And consequently, the other side of that coin, Poly Hell, is also a real thing.

What’s the greater point? Setting personal boundaries, or specific intolerables, OR my quick and clumsy hypothetical/immature hypothetical, in your opinion?

They will still rely on their own brain to determine what went wrong, and if they get the wrong message, that’s on the person who intentionally avoided communicating in the present.

I have yet to talk to someone drunk on NRE who overstepped and pushed an agreement or boundary that didn’t know why a consequence happened. It’s more likely… "Oh fuck, I shouldn’t have done that. I hope this doesn’t fuck things up too much."

“Avoiding communication in the present.” What do you really think the time lag would be from leaving the table or restaurant, and spouse being informed by staff that date night was over? Depending where you live and the type of restaurant and parking or transportation to said restaurant, I’d say it would be between 3-5 minutes and 10-15 minutes. So within a quarter of an hr, texts or phone calls would be made and what went wrong, IF NOT KNOWN, would be illuminated. Not avoided communication, but delayed.

Whatever the reason, if they aren’t getting it and they’re still disregarding your need for presence, walking out like that is more likely to push their abandonment triggers.

In this specific situation, where there was cheating prior and now a poly-bombed spouse/OP, it’s only fair she carry herself and her luggage to a higher standard. One's behavior is an indicator of their seriousness.

ALSO, you’re arguing facts not in evidence. How do we know she or anyone placed in this situation has abandonment triggers?

So let me get this straight. The struggling mono spouse of 22+ yrs, who’s been cheated on twice and was recently poly-bombed, needs to worry about her negative feelings/triggers, but the wife "not getting it for whatever reason“ is given a pass. How’s that work? Why isn’t she responsible for her feelings and emotional management?

I do not expect them to get the point that someone else is hurting if they’re dealing with their own immediate hurt. That’s why it’s an ineffective play.

First of all, I disagree. But how about who cares? Immediate understanding or comprehension isn’t the goal. 5-15 minutes after the fact is the goal!!! My little suggestion or hypothetical is the embodiment of actions speak louder than words.

Unless I’m seriously misreading what you’re advocating, “cold water” power plays like this cause breaches and they’re immature.

A breach, or “breaches“? You mean like twice being cheated on? What kind of breach occurs finding your own way or ride home? HELL, depending how little investment or presence was shown during the date, maybe she/they would rather find their own way home. GREAT excuse to call new partner and ask for a “ride“ OR place to stay. Is the consequence of NO SEX for an unspecific time BECAUSE a violation of the safe sex agreement a power play and immature? Who’s the arbiter of “mature“ consequences? What’s the mature consequence and NOT a power play violating the NO sex in marital bed? Sternly worded letter? A disappointment poem?

This sounds like disordered behavior of the Cluster-B variety. This sounds like a tired old dramatic script out of Teen Cosmo.

PLEASE link or describe or define Cluster-B variety.

Not familiar with Teen Cosmo, so I didn’t steal the idea from them. My opinion is based on being in the trench and it doesn’t bother me that you’re trying to belittle my opinion. It’s helpful to new members.

Ask yourself if you’re trying to resolve a conflict with a person you love or punish a person you hate. Do you feel entitled to punish?

I don’t think it’s necessarily either. I think it’s enforcing a line. Since when is ending a date abruptly or refusing intimacy “for whatever reason(s)" considered punishment or an exercise in hate? We’re talking about reactions to someone’s action or actions. Are you familiar with Newton's cradle?

Will that make you feel better?

Good question. Not sure. However, probably better than eating it and letting it slide. I don’t want to put words in the OP's mouth, but having read all of his recent threads, it seems like he’s feeling pretty powerless and just hanging on. Enforcing a boundary might make him feel like he’s NOT completely powerless waiting for the next issue or slight to occur.

I think it’s more likely to end the relationship, and no one should be surprised if that’s the result.

Two cheating affairs didn’t end the relationship, but being ditched at restaurant because she was in an NRE fog… who's immature now?

Maybe ending the relationship IS what you want and will make you feel better, in which case, I can imagine more mature ways to approach it.

“You," meaning me?? I don’t care one way or the other if the OP continues or ends his marriage. If enforcing agreements or boundaries is tantamount to ending the relationship, then every poly relationship is in trouble.

You seem to have strong opinions for a new member. Have you had to deal with your wife or partner's NRE? Have you had to deal with demotion, displacement, INTRUSION?! Or does all your info come from Teen Cosmo?

 

[EldritchDucky]

And what is that exactly? Care to share?

One of the super-big poly mantras is communication. In my comment, where you only quoted the part about getting up to use the bathroom, I suggested having a BRUTALLY honest conversation/discussion on the personal boundaries and parameters of interaction. Feel the need to text other partners during date night or our time, I’m out. Think you’re being generous and doing me a favor by having sex, don’t bother. Horny from sexting other partner and want to use me as a stunt dick, not interested. Topic of safe sex practices... testing and labs, condoms/birth control, and consideration of accidental pregnancy. Basically laying the new foundation to the new transitioning relationship or marriage.

So, no mind reading involved. Expectations are, or should be, more or less set and agreed upon. AND under the situation the OP finds himself, making specific stipulations on what he’s not willing to tolerate seems more than fair. NRE IS a real thing. Loads of threads here have covered the topic in general, and hundreds, if not thousands, of threads have covered specific thoughtless acts brought on by NRE. And consequently, the other side of that coin, Poly Hell, is also a real thing.

What’s the greater point? Setting personal boundaries, or specific intolerables, OR my quick and clumsy hypothetical/immature hypothetical, in your opinion?


I have yet to talk to someone drunk on NRE who overstepped and pushed an agreement or boundary that didn’t know why a consequence happened. It’s more likely… "Oh fuck, I shouldn’t have done that. I hope this doesn’t fuck things up too much."

“Avoiding communication in the present.” What do you really think the time lag would be from leaving the table or restaurant, and spouse being informed by staff that date night was over? Depending where you live and the type of restaurant and parking or transportation to said restaurant, I’d say it would be between 3-5 minutes and 10-15 minutes. So within a quarter of an hr, texts or phone calls would be made and what went wrong, IF NOT KNOWN, would be illuminated. Not avoided communication, but delayed.



In this specific situation, where there was cheating prior and now a poly-bombed spouse/OP, it’s only fair she carry herself and her luggage to a higher standard. One's behavior is an indicator of their seriousness.

ALSO, you’re arguing facts not in evidence. How do we know she or anyone placed in this situation has abandonment triggers?

So let me get this straight. The struggling mono spouse of 22+ yrs, who’s been cheated on twice and was recently poly-bombed, needs to worry about her negative feelings/triggers, but the wife "not getting it for whatever reason“ is given a pass. How’s that work? Why isn’t she responsible for her feelings and emotional management?

First of all, I disagree. But how about who cares? Immediate understanding or comprehension isn’t the goal. 5-15 minutes after the fact is the goal!!! My little suggestion or hypothetical is the embodiment of actions speak louder than words.

A breach, or “breaches“? You mean like twice being cheated on? What kind of breach occurs finding your own way or ride home? HELL, depending how little investment or presence was shown during the date, maybe she/they would rather find their own way home. GREAT excuse to call new partner and ask for a “ride“ OR place to stay. Is the consequence of NO SEX for an unspecific time BECAUSE a violation of the safe sex agreement a power play and immature? Who’s the arbiter of “mature“ consequences? What’s the mature consequence and NOT a power play violating the NO sex in marital bed? Sternly worded letter? A disappointment poem?

PLEASE link or describe or define Cluster-B variety.

Not familiar with Teen Cosmo, so I didn’t steal the idea from them. My opinion is based on being in the trench and it doesn’t bother me that you’re trying to belittle my opinion. It’s helpful to new members.

I don’t think it’s necessarily either. I think it’s enforcing a line. Since when is ending a date abruptly or refusing intimacy “for whatever reason(s)" considered punishment or an exercise in hate? We’re talking about reactions to someone’s action or actions. Are you familiar with Newton's cradle?

Good question. Not sure. However, probably better than eating it and letting it slide. I don’t want to put words in the OP's mouth, but having read all of his recent threads, it seems like he’s feeling pretty powerless and just hanging on. Enforcing a boundary might make him feel like he’s NOT completely powerless waiting for the next issue or slight to occur.

Two cheating affairs didn’t end the relationship, but being ditched at restaurant because she was in an NRE fog… who's immature now?


“You," meaning me?? I don’t care one way or the other if the OP continues or ends his marriage. If enforcing agreements or boundaries is tantamount to ending the relationship, then every poly relationship is in trouble.

You seem to have strong opinions for a new member. Have you had to deal with your wife or partner's NRE? Have you had to deal with demotion, displacement, INTRUSION?! Or does all your info come from Teen Cosmo?

Okay, I've clearly overstepped here. I do have some strong opinions, but I don't have the same experiences. I maintain we often take actions that are counterproductive and deepen the pain, but I understand why we do it. I'm out.

 

[dingedheart]

Okay, I've clearly overstepped here. I do have some strong opinions, but I don't have the same experiences. I maintain we often take actions that are counterproductive and deepen the pain, but I understand why we do it. I'm out.

OK, so I wanted to let things cool down and see if the OP or others wanted to comment before I jumped back in and then got way too busy and forgot about this thread. My bad.

I wouldn’t say you overstepped. Your opinion is your opinion. It’s a shame someone such strong opinions doesn’t want to back them up. I love this. You admittedly have strong opinions and don’t have the same experiences. (The question is, do you have any poly experiences at all?) BUT I maintain we (“we” who? the struggling cheated-on spouse of 22 yrs, or the newly poly spouse) often take actions that are counterproductive and deepen the pain, but you understand why we do it. Again, it’s a shame you didn’t want to share why it was my comment hit a nerve. And equally, I’d love to hear your experiential wealth on “why we do it."

 

[Tinwen]

OK, so I wanted to let things cool down and see if the OP or others wanted to comment before I jumped back in and then got way too busy and forgot about this thread. My bad.

Drop it, Dinged. Your original comment hit a nerve with multiple people, me included. But since it's hard to put a finger on why exactly, and even if we do, you'll just disagree, no-one else jumped on the wagon of endless discussion. EldritchDucky backed off once they realized the same.

 

[Evie]

Mod note: we're done here.